Robbin, lets talk about saddle fit.

[Dee]

Robbin1 has been sending me via e mail a truckload of great info about saddle fit. I want to try out some of my new found knowledge. :D

This first picture is of Bob's abetta flex tree saddle on nimbus. This is the widest saddle in the barn. It's a full 1/4 horse bar saddle and I believe does not fit my wide load puppy. :rolleyes:

Of course..........he has to have his nose in the grass!
And look at how curly he has gotten.........oh my gosh......he's soooooooooooo :eek:

[Dee]

Here is the front of the saddle.

I am postive it's in the best place as it wiggled into the slot several times. There is nothing underneath it.

[Tripledeuce]

:D Hard for me to tell,,,with his nose in the grass.............LOL!!!!!

He's still "stinkin cute"..........

Terry

[Dee]

Here is one of the inside front. I believe this saddle is too narrow.

[Dee]

Here is the outside..........I cannot get more of my hand under the saddle than I have here.

Does anyone think I need new gloves. :p

[Dee]

The back.......again........I cannot get my hand any further under the saddle.

I feel like it would poke him when ridden. :(

[Dee]

Back view..............this time I managed to keep his head up long enough to take the picture! :rolleyes:

[Dee]

I took this one standing right smack behind him. I was hoping it would show how it sat on his back. It just looks like a sea of curls to me......

But it does give you a clue to just how flat backed he is.

[Dee]

The last picture. This is with nothing and shows his back shape and lack of withers.

Does anyone else have a horse built like this?

[cols]

I think it is really hard to tell saddle fit from pictures. It's kind of a touchy feely thing. It actually *looks* pretty good to me. :confused:
When I was trying to find a saddle to fit Belle, my wide little mare, I figured out that tree width is not the whole story. I brought home a wide tree synthetic that I wanted to fit her in the worst way. It was WIDE !!! I was so excited. When I put it on her, I couldn't believe it didn' t fit. I kept putting it back up there, 'cause I just couldn't believe that I hadn't found the saddle of my dreams ! LOL Geoff came out about the time I was putting it back up for the 10th time, took one look and said "no". The one that finally fit her didn't seem nearly as wide, but is built a lot differently. I think sometimes, you have to try on a lot of jeans before you find a pair that fit !

[n2stitch]

Actually, that saddle may be too wide! It looks like it's sitting down so close to the withers that there wouldn't be room for a few fingers between his withers and the saddle if you were sitting in it. A too wide tree will sit too low, and almost look like a saddle that's too narrow. Sounds silly, doesn't it?!

[cols]

I was wondering if anyone else would bring that up. I thought it was sitting pretty low in the front too.

[Gulliver]

Dee, It's really hard to tell from pictures but.....you know I just have to have an opinion when it comes to saddle fit. :p The good thing about the Wintec is it doesn't appear to be too long. However, that saddle has no flare to it. Front or back it "appears" to be straight bars. Is that how it looks in person? If so, that's not a good thing for Nimbus. His back looks to be pretty flat so, he probably wouldn't need a lot of rock but he does need some flare in the back to accomodate those uhhh....ummm.....let's call them love handles :p and he especially needs some flare in the front of those bars. With that saddle, even though it settles down into the "spot", his scalpula is going to be running right into the bars. The more you ride him, the more it will bother him.

Romeo is built like Nimbus only in a taller model. ;) Not sure I have a pic of him here at work or not but if I find one, I'll post it. I tried several "full" qtr horse trees on him that were too small but you know what? He wears a full qtr horse tree. I just had to get one with the right flare. Also, there is no standard so, what one mfg calls FQH may be semi QH for another. I do not think the saddle is too narrow over all (It really is hard to tell from the pix) but I would say you're absolutely right, it does not fit Nimbus. Picture that Wintec with a bit of flare in the loin area - just enough to bring it a tad bit up to relieve the pressure back there. It almost looks like it's turning down into his loins. Then picture some more flare starting about 2 1/2" from the front of the bars and rising on up, matching the rise of his shoulders. Just keep thinking, flare, flare, flare.

Editing to add that yes, it does look like it's sloping down in front but I thought that might be due to him having his face in the grass. He's stout but he's still a little guy and looks can be deceiving. So, as mentioned, it is important not to overcompensate with the width. IMHO, I do not think the saddle is too narrow.
:D Gulliver

[Devo]

I'm no expert, but I kida thought it sat a little low, too, but pics can be really decieving especially with how fluffy he is. And you would also put a pad under it which would bring it up some.

Why do you feel this saddle doesn't fit? is it how he behaves? I know how hard this can be! JJ has a flat WIDE huge back with flat wide withers. All I can say is keep trying saddles on him. I tried a billy cook full 1/4 bars and it didn't look right on JJ. But I found a no name really old heavy barrel saddle and it seems to fit. It hugs his back really well. I haven't really ridden JJ with it, we are still getting there, but from all appearances and feel it fits. i will not truely know until I start riding him. I think Cols said, and I totally agree, that it is not just if it fits in the withers. The billy cook fit JJs withers, but just didn't fit his back. Look for a saddle that "hugs". When I sat My "new" saddle on JJ it just fit. I just kinda felt it like there was a notch on his back that this saddle slipped into. I really don't know how to describe it other than that. But just looking at it it doesn't really look all that different than my other saddle that I had.

D.

[cols]

I want to find a saddle that fits like the "Barbie" saddle fits on the "Barbie" horse. ..... I think it's called a treeless ..... :p :o

[Arabian Heart]

I agree that it's hard to tell much by pictures. I want to feel..push down and feel under the tree to see how it makes contact with the horse.

[Hrsecrzy1]

Look at those CURLS! :eek: What a dolly pony! :D

I'm not good at fitting saddles, Dee. It's something I learning about, too, so I'm posting to subscribe to this thread. ;)

[Val]

That's no horsey! That's a sheep! A big woolly sheep! Baaaaaaahhhh!
Val ;)

[annie92499]

It looked too big to me too. When you tightened the girth did it lean forward and get tight? That means it's too big. Brandy has to have semi-QH bars and a 7" gullet. That way my wieght is on the bars, not the tree. Brandy doesn't mind if the bars are too small, but if the tree is too big it sets my weight on her shoulders and HURTS. Anytime I lean forward she backs up or makes her back hollow trying to get the pressure off her shoulders. :o Mine that fits is a OLD saddle, but it is made really well and it shows. The better made the saddle, the more horses it fits.

[Haunani]

Dee- I hope I'm not butting in here. I'd have to say that it is too narrow for him. In that second pic, you can see where it would be pinching him. Imagine that with a pad on AND being cinched down... then add a rider's weight to it. If you can see where it would be pinching/tight just sitting on his back, then it definitely will be when all of that is added.

I can sympathise on the round ones.... Meteor's new saddle is coming tomorrow. In an English saddle, he needs a 3X tree!! :eek: :eek: (Usually have to be custom made, but Wintec recently came out with the 2x, 3x, and 4x gullets)

[Robbin1]

Ok, first of all, lets take a look at his shoulder. I have marked it with red dots so you can see approximately where the shoulder blades go. Try to feel the hard plate with your hand. This is the part that will slide forward and back, and slighty from side to side. If the saddle is to tight, the shoulder will be constricted and may even keep bumping into the tree.

[Dee]

Robin! I wondered if you had gone off on some bear hunt. :D


What I didn't say in the beginning and should have is that this thread is just for me and anyone else who wants to learn about how a saddle fits. I'm getting close to knowing what saddle I am going to buy........but I want all the info I can get first. I;'ll need all winter to save up for it!. :) I'm probalby going to put different saddles from the barn on him and take pictures just to compare.

I so much appreaciate all the help.

Take a look at picture 4, post 5. Where my fingers are under the saddle. I didn't say it very well in my posts at all. I couldn't get my whole hand under the saddle. And he wasn't even cinched up tight.

So I think the the saddle would rub and interfere with his shoulder blades. You pretty much confirmed what I was thinking.

Also the last pic........I think.......see how it doesn't roll with his back? That saddle would poke him when he walked.

I think it fits him as far as witdth goes. But it doesn't give him space to move.

I don't think the saddle is too wide. It might be, but I doubt it. When I was walking him back into the barn.......I could see light from the back all the way up to the front. It stayed off his backbone real well.

Gulliver: You said what I was thinking......only, much, much much better.

Devo: I don't think the saddle fits him because it feels too tight. It just does't feel comfortable......I think a pad would make it even worse.

Lets talk about pads for a minute. I've become conviened that pads will make a saddle fit worse if the saddle needs help. For example: If I were to pad this saddle to bring it "up", the pad would make the shoulder even more cramped. Now the pad my help the back part from digging in his loins. but maybe not.

SHEEP???? You dare to call my cute little pony a sheep?!...........baaaaaaaaaa

Annie: Thats a good question, no It did not lean forward until the pig with fur was eating! :D

Carmen: You also stated what I was thinking. It seemed to pinch just standing still. Much less moving.

It's suppose to get pretty cold today.........but lets see if I can get pics with a different saddle today.



One more question for those in the know. He is fat! I mean fat. I'm sure he will loose some weight over the winter. He is only getting hay for goodness sake. How much will say 50 lbs make in saddle fit? His shoulders are were I can see them........so they are not covered with fat per say.........OH! I just answered my own question! :p

[Khayels_Mom]

Dee, where did all those curls come from. Is it part of the breed. I thought from the pictures that the saddle looks like it is pinching in the shoulder area.

I agree with you about saddle pads. A saddle that fits well needs a pad to keep the saddle clean and maybe be pretty. I personally do not think that a pad can fix a ill fitting saddle.

[RavenToy]

Fat might not pad the shoulder itself.. though I've seen some horses that got markedly sleeker in the whole shoulder area when they lost tonnage. But what it might do is change the slope of the area behind the shoulder, and the slope of the back.

And Dee - Thanks for posting this! It's a great thread. And thanks for everyone responding... this is so helpful to me. :)

[Robbin1]

(Sorry about that! I got side tracked and then went to bed!)

In this picture, the dark blue dots represent the tree of the saddle, and the light blue dots represent the skirting. The skirting doesn't matter unless it's a poorly made saddle and the skirting was attached wrong. Sometimes it will want to curl under which could create a problem, but this would be rare. However, I do have a saddle that has skirting that curls under in the shoulder area making it a bad fit.

The dark blue dots, which is the tree, is what you want to be concerned with. The tree needs to stay off of the shoulder blade and give the shoulder blades room to move. This is why flare is so important. If you will look at how close the red and blue dots are, you can see that it can be extremely hard to keep the tree away from the shoulder blades, particularly on these mutton withered horses.

This is a great picture because you can see that when the head is lowered, and that front right leg is bearing the weight, look at how far back the shoulder is thrust! This is what will happen with each and every step the horse takes. You can also see that the pocket where the saddle will want to sit is VERY close to the shoulder blade, if not actually meeting.

[Robbin1]

In this picture, the red dots represent the shoulder blade, which is only my best guess. The blue line represents the tree of the saddle. As you can see, this saddle sits tightly on the shoulder blade, and the shoulder blade is having to move underneath this pressure and tightness. The saddle is too far forward which we will look at in the next picture.

The red arrow points to the area where I see what looks like a pressure point, which is to say that this is the area that is bearing the burden of too much pressure.

[Robbin1]

In this picture, look at where the red arrow is pointing, this s your rigging, the place where the cinch attaches. Your rigging is in as far forward as it gets. On this horse, this rigging is going to force the cinch right back under the elbows which is where you already have a problem. You can see that the back of the saddle is popping up. Remember the rocking chair analogy; this saddle is forcing all your pressure to be placed right up in the shoulders, which is where this saddle looks to be too tight.

I drew a green line to show what would happen if you took advantage of the back cinch. This MAY bring the saddle back a bit and keep it off the shoulders, and it would certainly free up those elbows

[Gulliver]

Excellent pix Robbin. They illustrate exactly what I was trying to say. And you made a good point that I neglected to bring up about the rigging. 3 Point rigging is especially helpful with these type of horses. I've attached a pic of Romeo. It's not great but I think you can see his "portly" stature. You can also see (maybe) how his saddle is cut back in the shoulder area so there is no interference there even if we're climbing, turning, etc.

I'm going to bring up another controversial area now regarding pads. :p I love this kind of stuff but if it bores any of you, you might want to move on now. ;) I will say, I do believe natural is best and I use natural materials on my thoroughbred. However, Romeo convinced me that a synthetic pad can also have it's time and place. There are 2 specific pads that I'll mention. The first one is the Limpet pad. It is an open cell design. The other is the CSI Pad. It is a closed cell design and my favorite of the two.

They both come in various thickness but I've used the thinnest (3/4") version of both. It's very maleable material and ends up about half that thickness under the saddle. It provides no real thickness between horse and saddle. I've also only used them without the decorative covers that are available for them. There are definite pros and cons to each of these pads that I won't get into here however, they both have one MAJOR advantage over any other pad I've tried and believe me, I've tried about a gazillion. It's the ability to transfer movement from the horse to the rider. Both pads mold to the shape of the horse's back on the bottom and also to the shape of the saddle on the top. It sounds so simple but it really does give the feeling that the saddle has actually grown to the horse. It's kind of a liquiedey (sp) type feel that transfers every muscle movement up through the saddle and to the rider.

I've never felt that same flow through with any other pad. Believe me, fitting a mutton withered, short backed, fat boy is not easy. You simply cannot girth up a beach ball tight enough to keep even a well fitting saddle in place. These pads keep my saddle in the perfect spot with absolutely no movement or sliding no matter what type of terrain we navigate. I recommended the CSI pad to a friend who said it pad seemed to be sliding a bit backwards under her saddle. She was a bit disappointed at first, until she got off and realized that her rigging had come undone on the off side. The pad had kept her saddle securely on without a girth!!! Now she's a believer too. ;)

Good thread Dee. I love hearing about everyone's saddle fitting experiences. Edited to add the pad in the pic is not the CSI pad that I use now.
Gulliver

[Dee]

Thanks Robin! YOu have given all of us lots to think about..........and once again, I will have to soak it up.

About the saddle being too far forward. ARe you saying you THINK if I did the green line rigging it would bring the saddle back to where it should be, MAYBE?

[Dee]

Believe me, fitting a mutton withered, short backed, fat boy is not easy. You simply cannot girth up a beach ball tight enough to keep even a well fitting saddle in place.


I haven't even finished reading your post...............I'm laughing too hard! :D

[Dee]

Thats really cool the way that saddle cuts back of the shoulders gulliver!

Do you have any pics of romeo naked? :eek:

I have read about those pads you are talking about in my searching and reading. It's nice to know they do what the web page says they do. Now I wonder where that was I saw them? :rolleyes:

I'm really really heading towards a treeless...........but I am learning sooooooooo much I may change my mind.

I took pics of phantom today wearing two different saddles. He has his own issues that need to be addressed and hopefully will also help others on the board. I'll post those as soon as I get them ready.

KM: Nimbus has the curly gene. It's not common. He has one little curly spot on his butt all the time......and the "crimped" mane, tail and feathers.........but the curls everywhere........that is his winter coat! :D

[Khayels_Mom]

Dee, would you object to me posted some pictures of Khayel with his endurance saddle. He is also a low withered round backed horse. I believe his saddle fits ok...but who knows. Good thread BTW.

Robbin, the illustrations are very helpful. Thanks.

[Dee]

Of course not KM! I really think we can all learn a lot by seeing all kinds of different saddles on different horses!

[Dee]

Here is the first picture of Phantom. He is 20 (2 vets best guess) and getting pretty sway backed. As you can see, he was NOT happy about this little adventure we were having.

[Dee]

Here he is with Bob's saddle on him. I used to think this saddle fit him. I wanted it to fit him really badly as a very close friend gave it to me.

But I'm re-thinking the fit now. It could be that I need shims to bring it up because it does bridge very badly due to his swaybackness. (is that a word?) :eek:

[Dee]

IN this picture you can see how this same saddle digs into phantom the same way it dug into nimbus.

Saddle flaw?

[Dee]

The back also digs into him the way it did on nimbus.

[Dee]

Here is a picture of it with the stirrup up so you can see better how it actually sits on his back.

[Dee]

This is a picture of the underside. I am hoping it will be good enough to see the rock of this saddle.

[Dee]

Here is another abetta on phantom. I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure it's not full 1/4 horse bars.

[Dee]

Here is the other abetta in the front. See how it doesn't poke into his shoulders?

[Dee]

But the back of it does?

Could this be because of him being sway backed?

[Dee]

Here is a side view and to me it just screams I am bridging.

[Robbin1]

OK, this horse would be easier to fit if it weren't for his sway back. You can see the red dots outline his shoulder blade. The blue is the tree. Much more room there then Nimbus has. You can see though why a tree that has flare is so important as there is not much margin for error

The green dots are where this horse would have pressure points. Meaning that all the weight of the saddle would rest on these four points, two points on either side of the wither, and two points on either side of the loin.

Many people make the mistake of moving a saddle too far forward and you can see why this would be a mistake. You do not want the tree on the shoulder. Skirting is ok, skirting will most always be over the shoulder, which is another reason flare is so important. A saddle that doesn't flare may allow the skirting to pinch the shoulders.

[Dee]

LOL.....Robbin!! Rolling on the floor laughing at that cute green guy!!! :D :D :D

[Robbin1]

In this picture, you are right, it looks good in the shoulder. From this angle, you can see how the shoulder looks clear from the tree. Look at the next picture though.

[Robbin1]

The cinch is what I believe is called a 7/8's position. Very far forward! You can see the beach ball effect!

The green dots are the shoulder, the yellow is where I guess the tree of the saddle to be. In this picture, it looks like the tree is sitting right on the shoulders. Ouch!

[Dee]

Robin......the last pic.....the one that says ouch in two places. that is bob's saddle...........NOT the one that looked like it fit in the shoulder.

You can tell the difference by the green strings on the (not bob's) saddle.

[Robbin1]

Dee, running your hand under the skirting won't tell you anything. The tree sits approximately where the red dots are. This is what must fit the horse.

[Dee]

OW OW OW OW!!! I can see the big owy now!! YIKES.

So what does one do when the saddle continues to move back into a place that isn't where it should be?

answer: don't use the saddle? :D

[Robbin1]

I wanted to explain the rocking chair to those of you who don't know what I mean by that.

In picture one, you have a good fit with double rigging. The double rigging is keeping the pressure even through out the back. You can also just use your front and back cinch without the crisscross to achieve the same affect, but you need to tighten your back cinch, loose doesn't cut it.

In picture two, you can see what is happening with 7/8's rigging. The cinch is too far forward which is pitching this saddle forward, and bringing all the weight bearing surface up to the shoulders. This often causes the cinch to ride too far forward where it irritates the elbows.

Picture three is what I believe is called...? I forget!!! Anyone know? Anyhoo, the rigging is closer to the center of the saddle which is what you want to have if you are only going to ride with one cinch.

(Sorry for the lack of artistic ability! This is hard on a computer!)

[DreamQuest]

I'm so glad for this thread. Carmen recently told me that neither of my saddles fit Darcy. I feel like such a dud for not realizing it sooner. Anyway...

I have a question about the flex tree saddles. I've been looking at the Abetta Endurance saddles as a possible inexpensive option for me and Darcy. But they only have the flex tree option in 6.5 and 7 inch gullets, not in the 6.75, which is of course what I thought Darcy would need. Why wouldn't they make it in 6.75? Does the flex tree mean that the 6.5 should be flexible enough to fit a horse that would usually take a 6.75?

Gulliver, thanks for the tips on the saddle pad. I may fork out the dough to get Darcy a really nice one.

Robbin, is it a 3/4 rigging? I've seen that term around a lot.

[Robbin1]

In this picture, you can see how the rock should fit. In picture one, the rock of the saddle matches the rock of the horses back. There will me maximum weight bearing surface with this fit.

In picture two, you can see a bridge. The rock of the saddle is too straight. This means that the weight will be carried by four points. One point on each side of the withers, and one point on each side of the loins.

Also notice how in the top picture, the saddle tree clears the shoulder blade very well. In the bottom picture, the saddle is too far forward and sits right on the shoulder blade.

[Robbin1]

I wanted to show you guys what we mean when we say flare. In picture 1, you can see that the red line flares out at the shoulders. This is good!

I also wanted to show you some common fit problems in the shoulders. In picture 2, you can see that the angle of the saddle matches the angle of the shoulder. As long as the width is good, this is a great fit! However, in this picture, the saddle is too wide. This means that it will likely sit on top of the withers which is bad. You want good wither clearance.

In picture 3, the saddle is not wide enough and the angle is wrong. Can you see where you will develop pressure points?

In picture 4, this saddle is too small. While you might get it on the horse, the shoulders cant move freely and the saddle will probably bridge.

[cols]

Rigging was one of the things I pin pointed as an issue when I was trying to find a saddle to fit Belle. I had to draw a line in my mind where it needed to be, put the saddle up and see where it hit. I discovered that 7/8 rigging was too far forward for her. It made a big difference in saddle shopping just knowing that one thing. I also like double rigging better, but haven't added it to Belle's saddle yet.

[Robbin1]

To check for bridging, with the cinch loosened, first check the shoulder area. If the angle is a good match, you should be able to run your hand up and down in the shoulder area, and you should feel even pressure. There should not be one place where it feels bulgey or tight. It also should not be hard to run your hand up and down with a loosened cinch. If it does, your saddle may be too tight.

Next, stand on the side of the horse and run your hand up under the tree. You can see where I drew three lines. Run your hand up under the tree and feel along the length of the tree. Do it if front of the stirrup, under the stirrup, and behind the stirup. The saddle will raise up a bit with your hand, but you should still be able to feel a uniform feeling, like this )). If it feels like you have more clearence in the middle of the back, your probably bridging.

[Robbin1]

And finally, stand behind the horse and lift the back of the saddle up, then lower it. If you do this over and over again, you will be able to see how that tree is matching the back

[Dee]

This is where I totally get lost. bridging I get. too narrow or too wide, I get.......but angles! I just cannot get that. I get that the angle of the saddle has to fit the angle of the horse............I get that.

But gosh with all that junk on the saddle.........padding and fuz and what ever........how in the world can you tell? I just don't get it.

I can feel under the saddle and feel pressure points. is that part of the angle?

[Robbin1]

I just wanted to attach a blank slate (if it works) in case anyone else wants to draw! Using paint alone was too big, I had to erase a photo and draw on it. Who knows why? I guess I'm inept!

Run your curser over this blank slate and find the copy box, or right click and save it. Once you download it, you can right click, hit edit, and use the paint program to draw! (I'm sick of trying to explain things that need a visual!

[Robbin1]

Dee, the angle is most important at the shoulder. You need this \\ not this |\. You can see that. If you follow my instructions and stand behind the horse and lift and lower the saddle, it will tell you a lot. You need to do it over and over again, but pretty soon, you'll be able to see just how that saddle is fitting.

[Tripledeuce]

Robbin,,,,,,I think the word your looking for is "centefire",,,,,,,as in centerfire rigging,,vs double rigging.

Terry

[Robbin1]

Thanks Terry and Dream! I think your both right, there are several different riggings, 7/8's, 3/4', and center fire, which may be a 5/8's postion. 7/8's is the worst and shouldn't be used unless you use that crisscross method of cinching.

[Green -n- Growin]

As usual, I'm probably a day late, and a dollar short, but I just got some information regarding this subject from a local here and whenever I can impart any knowledge to anybody, it's a red-letter day for me, too!!! :D If this information is redundant in this thread, please forgive me and overlook my faux-paux! :o

Couple of things I recently learned from a local feed/tack store:
1) Saddle pads do not compensate for a poorly fitting saddle...they are a little like putting extra fluffing into a poorly fitting pair of pants or shoes. Owwwwwwwwwwww!!!

2) Some tack stores will provide the service of fitting a saddle to your horse if you take the horse down to them. We have one place in our county who offers this service, and do it with a free-of-charge understanding. The people who abuse this service (doing it just as a 'day-out' activity) will be charged, but not the people who are genuinely looking for a well-fitting saddle.

3) Some saddles (Circle Y, I think) are just sh#*&% made saddles to begin with. Most Cordura saddles are sh%#$@ too. I don't recall which saddles were recommended to me, but I'll keep shopping around and let you know? I'm using my bareback pad until then.

4) Since you're talking about a saddle's fitting, does everybody know what behavior to look for in a horse that might indicate a sore fitting saddle? Just curious??? :)

[DreamQuest]

Ok, one of the saddles I'm looking at has a 3/4 centerfire rigging. What does that mean?

[cols]

Circle Y ... made in Texas ???? Yoakum ?? (SP?) :confused: Really ?? They're crappy ??? I'm pretty sure that's what I just bought for Ky and Geoff.

[Green -n- Growin]

DreamQuest...

Ummmm, er, uh...I give up...if any moderators could clarify for us please? LOL :D

[DreamQuest]

LOL, GnG. You funny. :D :p :D

[Tripledeuce]

Circle Y has been around for a long time........... Jan has a ""barrel" circly Y she loves.

As with everyuthing,,,some are better than others,some great,some s#$t,,,,,but I,personally,,,have seen very few "poor" circle Y's.

Old "cowboy" story,,,,,,,,,,

Its comming up @10 oclock,,,time for a break,,,,,th saddle boss says," Time to get off and re-adjust your saddles. All you riding rimfrie ,,,,,get off and give your horse a break,"....................LOL!!!!

Great thread!!!!!!

Terry

[Tripledeuce]

DQ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,3/4centerfire is an oxymoran..........not possible.

The "centerfire" position is more like 5/8,,,,,, the cinch is hung almost in the center of the seat.

Full,,,,,,,,cinch hung on a line drawn through the front of pommil,,,,,,,,7/8 just to the back edge of the pommell.

I would guess,,,,that while the saddle your looking at is 3/4,it may have no rear cinch..............Therfor,the person "thinks" its a centerfire,as it only has one cinch.

Terry

[DreamQuest]

Gotcha. I'll have to investigate more carefully.

[Devo]

Ok, now i have a question :p Keep in mind I am just learning too. My "new" barrel saddle has a cinch that sits back further. At first it confused me becaues I learned where the cinch "should" go, not where the saddle should sit. but putting the cinch in the "right" spot put the saddle on the shoulders and I KNOW it don't go up that far. :p Maybe I have a centerfire??? It sits under the stirrup leathers.

D.

[Devo]

BTW: Robbin. Thankyou for those drawings of the rocking saddle!!!!! that was EXACTLY what my old saddle was doing!

D.

[Dee]

Dee, the angle is most important at the shoulder. You need this \\ not this |\. You can see that. If you follow my instructions and stand behind the horse and lift and lower the saddle, it will tell you a lot. You need to do it over and over again, but pretty soon, you'll be able to see just how that saddle is fitting.


I forgot to stand behind and look. :o

I wonder if I could get someone to hold it up and I could take a picture. :confused:

I could try...........but it probably won't be until this weekend.

Everyone who is traveling............have a great safe weekend! :D

[Gulliver]

Dee, You're difficulty in being able to visualize what's going on under the saddle and all that rigging is perfectly normal. I'll say again that the absolute best way to get it is to find a bare tree or tree forms and sit them on your horse. Then you'll know exactly what's going on under there and you just have to make sure you get a quality saddle built around the best fitting tree. :)

One other thing I noticed is that the saddles in your pix of Nimbus would be "less bad" ;) if they were made a little better. See how the very back of the saddle actually starts to curve downward into the horse? That's a result of the way the edging was put on. A quality edging would be attached in a way that prevented it from doing that. As far as rigging goes, whether it's full, 3/4, 7/8, whatever.....the fit of it still depends on the rider's legs and what's comfortable for them and the type of girthing that's used. 7/8 Will work perfectly well if you use the 3 point method. What I've found in the last 3 years or so, is that the 3 point method actually improves the stability of most rigging. It distributes the weight and balances the pull of the girth. If you're looking at treeless saddles, it's a necessity. I have not found a treeless yet that works well on a round, mutton withered horse. I'm not saying they don't fit, I'm saying that in my experience with them, and with other people I've talked to, the concensus seems to be that they do not stay put. They continually shift from one side to the other. They would work well on my Gulliver and they might work well on your Phantom, but they just slide around our beach ball boys. I'd be very surprised if you ever saw a serious trail rider with that type of saddle on that type of horse unless they had a breast collar and crupper and maybe super glue under it. I just can't traverse the kind of terrain I want to with those saddles.
OK, that's my 50 cents worth for today! :D
I love this thread.
Gulliver

[Dee]

One other thing I noticed is that the saddles in your pix of Nimbus would be "less bad" ;) if they were made a little better. See how the very back of the saddle actually starts to curve downward into the horse? That's a result of the way the edging was put on. Gulliver


YOu can't do that! Make this statement and then run off and make PIES!!!! :p

Explain more please.................

[RavenToy]

*laughing* Dee, I can just hear the indignation in your voice. You're so funny.

So Gulliver, when are you going to quit doing whatever it is you do and start your saddle fit consulting business full time? Because I'm very sure that whatever you do couldn't POSSIBLY be as important. :o

[clicka]

I am sooo confused. I'm going to have to take a pic of my saddle on my horse and let you guys critique. I'm having second thoughts about my saddle placement. If thats the case then I think mine is to wide. Mine is a cheapo full quarter horse bar. I'm seriously thinking of trying one of those super cheap Abettas with the southwestern print. They come in a semi quarter horse bar. I like the lightweight saddles alot.

Is there any kind of a ballpark guideline for trees and non quarter horses.
Paso fino=semi quarter horse?

[Dee]

There is a huge tack auction here tomorrow. Kathy and I are going.

WE went last year and from what I remember saddles go pretty cheap. like sometimes 50 - 100 bucks.

IF I can get a couple with different tree's like full 1/4 , semi 1/4 cheep, I am going to buy them and then take them apart.

I just need to SEE how a tree works before I can make an educated decision. :rolleyes:

[Dee]

Mindy: Kathy and terry ride paso's. They both use semi 1/4 horse bars. terry uses an abetta, kathy a big horn.

[Gulliver]

OK, I'm back and about 5 pounds heavier! :eek: Pies turned out very good by the way -- a pumpkin, a french silk and a cherry! Mmmm, very tasty if I do say so myself! :D

OK Dee. What I meant by the edging comment: Turn your saddle upside down and look at the back of the saddle and see how much material is actually sticking out back there PAST the tree. That extra skirting, looks like it wants to sort of droop or turn downward. Then, the edging is sewn on there in such a way that it actually angles downward a bit too. Think of it as a hoof that instead of growing out to the healing angle, is starting to angle downward. :p If you extend a line through the angle of the edging downward, you can see how its line runs right through the horse. It would be better if the whole skirt had a bit of upward angle to it so it wouldn't get in the way of those beefy loins when they're really working, i.e., climbing hills, twisting, turning, etc. 2nd best would be if at least your edging was sewn on with the ribbing just up on the top side of the skirt edge. Of course, then the edging would have to have a longer bottom side on the seem binding part and would be more labor intensive to attach and then you'd probably loose part of the economies of a synthetic in the first place but.......it would make it a "less" bad fit for Nimbus. :D

And ventroflexed is when the horse travels with his back hollowed out. Often, a horse travelling ventroflexed will also have a shortened stride. When we were showing Saddlebreds, the judges actually LIKED that look! :( It's really not good for the horse.

And I've officially gone Western so, Yes! Western riders do give a hoot about saddle fit. However, I think that due to their conformation, "most" QH's are easier to fit and since "most" Western riders ride QH's, on an average, they do not have the saddle fit problems that some others do. And yes, I know that was an incredibly generalized statement.

Something to think about. Many people who have difficult to fit horses, love the McClellan or similar type saddles. People go out of their way to find old ones and get them restored enough to ride in. Now, think about the "type" of horses used during the Civil War when the McClellan was mainly used. Were they quarter horses? I think not.

Check out the Boz site that I posted earlier. Or maybe that was in the other thread??? I'm overstuffed and easily confused. :p V is right, it's not a very user friendly site but it has some interesting sadles on it.

So did you get any saddles at the sale and have you disected any of them yet??? Huh? Huh? Did ya? Huh???
Gulliver

[Auragin]

Other than RT's hoof threads, this is, perhaps, one of the most informative threads I've read so far. Thank you, Robbin! I'm sure in many months I will post about my short backed, large rumped, normal withered, still-growing, half-Quarter, half-Arabian. :D

Do most of you use saddle pads, blankets, or no?????

[Dee]

Gulliver: Isn't your name dee too? :D

Yes I did get a saddle today. Actually, I may have lucked out........I mean big time! I took my little nimbus cardboard cut out. and bought a saddle with rear girth, breast collar and head stall for 175.00. It's wide enough. Now we just have to see how the tree lies. I thought the auctioneer said 75.00 but when I went to pay it was 175. Thats ok.........if it fits! :D :D If it doesn't I bet I can sell it for what I paid for it.

On the other side of that.........I got a full pair of suede chaps for 20 bucks!!! :D


I did check out the boz saddle page and the orhtoflex. I got over loaded and had to give it up.

I'm back to thinking about getting one of those molds and carrying it around to tack stores or the EQUINE AFFAIRE in April! :D

So what kind of horses did ride in McClellan saddles?

Auragin: I agree robin has been just a fantastic person to help all of us with this saddle issue! THANKS ROBIN!

Also, I want a saddle that I can use just a navajo type blanket with. One I can wash. :p

[Haunani]

Some notes from a saddle fitting clinic I went to in Feb, while a lot to wade through, might be helpful to some, too.

They're here (http://64.119.185.222/dboard/showthread.php?t=723).

One of the things to be careful of is fitting the saddle to a stationary horse. The shape of their back and shoulder changes once they are in motion. If the saddle is a perfect fit when stationary, it most likely won't fit nearly as well when in motion.

[Tripledeuce]

The McCllen was designed to fit the thourgbred //cross horses the calvery used....

They crossed the TB stallions with everything from mustangs to drafts....

Terry

[Dee]

I Love Aussie's. Just love them. Now I know lot's of people can't stand them.

Please check out this page.......note.......made for wider breeds such as haflingers.........and give me your best critique! Thanks! :D

"http://www.frontierequestrian.com/getProductDetails.cfm?ID=291"

[Arabian Heart]

That is such a cool saddle dee, and what a great price, nice wide tree and that should sit further back than a western saddle too. Just see if you can have that horn cut off.:rolleyes: it looks completely out of place.

[Horsespoiler]

Dee I have an Aussie from Frontier. I noticed that they are now in MO. When I bought mine they were in Crescent City CA and we drove down and they hauled out lots of saddles for me to look at. They are really nice people that work out of their house. Most saddles will come with or without the horn. It is handy for hanging things from but don't try roping with it :p

[Dee]

E! You are too much........we all know you hate horns. :p

Horsespoiler: thank you for the info on the saddle folks. I like horns. Roping :eek: Na........I think I'll stick to trail riding and training.

[Gulliver]

Dee, Yes, I'm a Dee too, or Dee2, or maybe Dee squared????? :D

Great on getting an auction saddle but you sure won't want to cut that one up!

Terry is exactly right about the type of horses the McClellan's were used on. A little of everything was crossed in there. Several saddle manufacturers were trying to get the government contract at the time for supplying the calvary with saddles. After several tries, the McClellan finally won the contract because it fit the widest range of horses and held up the best. Those cavalry horses did have TB and Draft and Mountain Pony and just about everything else you can think of. Their saddles had to be very versatile or the whole calvary would have been walking. I guess that would have made them an army instead of a calvary. :p Look at the McClellan and you will not find one piece of unnecessary material on them. They are lightweight with nothing to poke or prod or generally iritate a horse. The trees are relatively short and the rigging is designed to distribute the pull/weight. You can look at those saddles and tell fairly easily if it's going to fit your horse or not.

Because of Romeo's conformation, I like the saddles that are cut back in the shoulder area and preferably have little skirting in the back.

Dee, I haven't checked out your Aussie page yet. I'll do that. I rode Aussie for years and loved it. The only problem I had was getting a tree with the bars short enough for Romeo.

Let us know how your auction saddle works out.
*Edited to add that as mentioned, it's important to test out the saddle while the horse is moving!!! That's an excellent point.
Gulliver

[Dee]

Robin, were you be?

I plan on checking the auction saddle today with pics.

I contacted the aussie folks about fit and returns. what they told me was I couldn't ride it or cinch it up to check for saddle fit so of course I ask how am I suppose to check and this is what I get back.

"Hello
The Bushmaster is best for the Haflingers with some withers - the Stockrider with draft tree is best suited to the wide flat backed types - it is in stock in brown or black. Seat size is measured the same as English - as far as equivalent sizing.
All you need to do to check for fit is to put the saddle on the horse on a clean sheet - you should have 2 to 3 fingers clearance over the spine - the saddle should be sitting level.

Hope this helps. thank you


This answer sorta bugs me. Anyone else?

[Robbin1]

All you need to do to check for fit is to put the saddle on the horse on a clean sheet - you should have 2 to 3 fingers clearance over the spine - the saddle should be sitting level.

This comment right here tells you exactly how much integrity that this company has. Zero. I would not trust even one more thing that they tell you. Wither clearance is one of the easiest things to achieve.

Don't get over anxious Dee, the right saddle is out there. I think that your time and money is better spent if you travel to a good saddle shop. A reputable dealer won't have a problem with you cinching up a saddle and riding in it. An excellent dealer will tell you to work up a sweat. (Just use your own cinch. ;) ) A good saddle will last you all your life. Don't cheap out on it! Go ahead and spent the extra few hundred dollars. Take a part time job for the winter, clean houses, find a way to buy the more expensive saddle. Think of it in terms of buying a car. You get what you pay for. It is really hard to find quality for cheap!

[Gulliver]

I'm with Robbin. What a load of hooey that was. What about the rock? What about the length of the bars? What about the flare? I haven't checked out that site yet but I can't believe a saddle manufacturer actually said that! Run fast - Run far.
I'd pass.
Gulliver

[Gulliver]

Dee....Have you checked out the DeSoto Saddle? If not, Google it and tell us what you think.

OK, Here's your assignment. :D

Pretend you just won the lottery or your rich great uncle died or your fairy god mother just popped in. ;)
Remember, you are now Dee the Wealthy.
Which saddle would you really, really, REALLY want to own?

;) Gulliver

[Khayels_Mom]

I asked Dee if I could post some of Khayel's pictures with him wearing a saddle. So here they are. Pease feel freee to comment. I generally thought this saddle fit fairly well. Now I am not so sure.

The first picture is Khayel bare. He is a full arab but a bit rangy. He's is 15.2.

The second picture is with the saddle. It's a Big Horn endurance saddle with an arab tree.

The third picture is the shoulder. I think this looks ok. No pinching.

The fourth picture shows the back. Should it lay even even along the body?

The fifth is the rigging and shows where the cinch lays on the horse.

Robbin, I would welcome your opinion with or without the diagrams.

[Khayels_Mom]

I also lifted the saddle from the back and it seems to lay along the spine ok.

[Dee]

Ok Km, I am gonna take a stab at this and see if I am even close!

In picture 2, I noticed the saddle pops up in back. Do you have to tighten it extra tight to keep it in place?

In picture 3, It just looks like there is no room between K and the saddle, no give, no room to move.

In the last picture: It back is still popping up even tho you have that nifty Y girthing thingy.

I wonder why that is?

A saddle is suppose to lay flat on the back from front to back.

[Dee]

Gulliver: What a perfect question to ask me! :D If money were no issue and I could have any saddle I wanted. Any saddle...........because if money were no issue then I could get someone to come out and build me a saddle from scratch that I wanted to fit me and my little nimbus. :)

Ya know.........that question freed me up to think about what I wanted.....not what is out there, or what might work for my horse, or what is best for his back or what everyone else thinks is a good saddle for my horse.......

I'd want an aussie! I love those things! I'd want an aussie I could lift without causing me severe back problems! :D

And then after I decided that..........I get on teh board to talk about aussies and who beat me to it but good ole DQ! :D

I have pics of the saddle I picked up at the auction on nimbus........I'll post those in a minute and you guys can give it a go. I have my own options, but I want to know if I'm learning right. :eek:

[Khayels_Mom]

Dee, I think I need to retake picture three, tall horse/short person issue. If I was a little more elevated the space between the pommel and withers would show up better and there is plenty of space there.

I posed the question in picture four about the back not laying flat? Seems like it should. Now here's another question. Is the saddle too far back??? and no, the saddle is not cinched tight.

Agree with your last comment.

[Dee]

So what is it about the saddle that makes you think it's not fitting Pat?

Or is it the way Khayel is acting? (did I spell it right?) :o

[Dee]

Here is my auction saddle.

Nimbus with the saddle on.........no pad.

[Dee]

Here is the front of it

[Dee]

And under so you can see the curve of his back with the curve of the saddle

[Khayels_Mom]

Dee, nice looking auction saddle :D and it looks like a decent fit.

Actually I think this saddle fits OK. I'm not getting any adverse behavior from Khayel and yes, you spelled it correct. I was curious to see what you guys thought.

[Dee]

It bugs me that it pops up in the back pat.

They are not suppose to do that, and from what I understand, the back coming up is caused by the front being too tight or too narrow.

We need Robin or gulliver or someone else who is more educated! :D


I'm not sure if I like the auction saddle yet. I used it yesterday and today. Both times I got it off and put my bareback pad back on. I can't relax in it........and for some reason I am leaning to the left again. I don't do that on the pad.

I leaned a lot with phantom. It seems to fit him pretty good. So even if it doesn't fit nimbus, I think I found a saddle to use for the times I do ride phantom, one or 2 hours a week.

[DreamQuest]

Now, we all know what a dunce I am about saddle fitting, so feel free to ignore me. On the new saddle, Dee, is it just the picture or is the skirting in the back a little close to Nimbus's hip? I'm trying to learn...really. ;)

[Gulliver]

KM, Your saddle is not too far back. I was going to ask if you could put it back about 2 inches farther from the scapula. It's so hard to tell from pictures but I think it's only coming up in the back because it's not cinched up and it's so lightweight. If it was cinched, I don't think the back would be up off him like that. Do you usually use the Y rigging when you ride? If you do and if you were sitting in the saddle, it doesn't look like there would be any problems with it and if Khayel isn't complaining, I'd call it good. :p It looks lightweight and comfy too.

Dee, notice the binding on KM's saddle and how it differs from yours? That's what I was talking about earlier. As for your auction saddle, I would have to say that Nimbus needs a round skirt - not a square skirt. It might be an optical illusion but it looks like it's poking him in the hollow of his loins??? Good eye DQ! It could also stand to be cut back a bit in the shoulder area. Remember Robbin's diagrams. Try to imagine those dots on him again.

Good job with your homework assignment! :D :D First step is now complete and you know the style you're most attracted to.

2nd step is to find the perfect Aussie saddle for Nimbus. There's lots of manufacturer's to check out so, that's your next assignment. :) There is an Aussie mfg that has a good quality and very lightweight saddle that works well on short backed horses. The problem is...I can't remember the name right now. I'll do some research and see if I can find it again.

3rd step....Well, we'll save the 3rd step until we get step 2 complete. :D
Gulliver

[DreamQuest]

*DQ does happy dance!* She can be taught! :D

KM, I want your saddle in black. Of course, I haven't been able to find it in black. Gar! :cool:

[Gulliver]

Ah Hah!!! Dee and DQ.... The Aussie saddle that I was told about that was so lightweight was the Longreach. It's one of the ones from Down Under. I don't have any experience with it personally but it was recommended by a few people to me on another board. It might be worth looking into for you two Aussie wannabe's. :D :D
Gulliver

[Gulliver]

......I've had this for a very long time and just ran across it. Thought it might stir some thoughts.

"If you really want to know what's going on under the saddle, dust the horse's back with corn starch or talcum power, put a light weight dark cloth or a wet chamois on the animal's back, and install the saddle sans pad over the cloth or chamois."

Now work the horse on the longe or in the round pen and see what the cloth tells you.

Then, lightly brush the back (to even up the powder) and use a new cloth. Ride the saddle for a bit then see what the cloth tell you.

You can learn at least two things:

First, you might learn that the saddle does effectively accomodate the horse's back. Or it doesn't. This test takes ten or fifteen minutes, not three days.

Second, it can tell you that your seat is good, or it rates an SUX.

How? Look at the differences between the two cloths. If the unloaded saddle shows an even impression and loaded saddle is uneven then the fault lies with the rider, not the saddle.

Like the video camera this system does not lie and might be tough on the ego. It does, however, lighten the load on the horse's back."

I've never tried this but I thought it made a good point.
Gulliver

[Robbin1]

Alrighty then, KM, first of all, I want to point out some things about your horse.

First of all, I have drawn a green line that goes from the point of the withers to the point just behind the elbows, this is mostly for reference.

The red dots are the shoulder. Just next to that you will find some lavender dots. What you need to remember when you are fitting the shoulder, is that when you find the shoulder blade, there is cartiledge that extends another 2 inches or so. This is why it is so important that the saddle doesn't interfere. Can you imagine if you had to wear a back pack and row a boat? What if with every stroke, your shoulder blades kept bumping into the strap on the pack? After awhile...??? Ouch!

The black dots are where the tree should sit; back off the shoulder, yet far enough forward to be off the loins, which I have represented by more lavendar dots.

I also drew some yellow lines above the horse. One is at the point of withers, the other is where the front of the tree should lay. Again, these are just for reference.

I'll continue in the next post so I dont have too many lines all over the place!

[Robbin1]

In this picture, I have drawn a green line from point of withers to just behind the elbow, and then back up again to the low point where the wither ends. I've tried to recreate this in the saddle picure.

Again, the red dots are the shoulder. Remember that beyond that is cartiledge. Take a look at how far the shoulder reaches into that green triangle.

I have also drawn a saddle. The part numbered 1. is the tree. Notice how it is off the shoulder. However, the part numbered 2. is the skirting. This part will cover the shoulder.

I want you to also notice how far the tree intersects into the green triangle.

[Robbin1]

Here's where it gets tricky! I can only guess at this with a saddle on the horses back. You have the advantage to get your hands in there and feel for the things that I'm going to point out.

First of all, I have tried to draw the green triangle again. Remember it goes from the point of the wither to the place where the wither ends, (this is just an educated guess of course!)

The shoulder is the red dots, and the saddle tree is the white line. As you can see, the shoulder is intersecting into the green triangle just about the same as in the picture without a saddle. So far, so good! However, look at where the tree is? Do you remember where it should intersect into the triangle? This saddle is too far forward! Remember the yellow reference lines? One is at the point of wither, the other is where the saddle tree "should" start. Look at those two reference points in this saddle?

I have added one more reference point. There are two spots on this horse. I have drawn a line from each spot to the place where the tree of the saddle begins. Look how this correlates in the next picture.

[Robbin1]

This is where I think your saddle is sitting. Notice the reference spots and the green line that starts at point of withers?

I have also put some red dots in the hollow of the neck just above the withers. This helps you to determine where the withers sits. Also, notice the slope of the back and loins. I'm betting that if you move this saddle back 2 or 3 inches, you will find that it fits better all the way around.

Just one more point of reference. I have drawn a few red dots along the slope of the shoulder. Can you see how this runs right on up in a straight line and meets the saddle I drew? Now imagine these same red dots on the picture of the horse in a saddle. You can see that the picture I've drawn is pretty close.

[Robbin1]

Just as a general rule of thumb, there is a hollow that sits below the wither and behind the shoulder. I have circled it here. This is where the mantel should settle into. There will still be an inch or two of the tree in front of the mantel, but if you settle the mantle into that sweet spot, the tree should be well off of the shoulder.

[Robbin1]

I found some pictures of a saddle tree. Not that this is a "good" saddle tree, but it should give you an idea of what a saddle tree looks like. Look at how the mantle sits right at the front of the bars. There is very little bar in front of the mantle. In the first picture, I have circled the "sweet spot". This is the part that should be settling right into that hollow. Now take a look at the saddle on the white horse and imagine where the tree is sitting?

[Robbin1]

Just a couple more of the tree.

[Khayels_Mom]

Robbin,

Thanks for the info. I need to sit down and try to understand the diagrams etc. I really appreciate the effort you took to post back. I need to work now and may have question later. Of course the real deal is to post question later with the saddle positioned properly.

Thanks,
Pat

Thank you too Gulliver

[Gulliver]

Robbin, Your diagrams are great. Thanks for taking the time to put those up. They let me see what I couldn't see just from the plain picture. I thought the shoulder looked more forward. After looking at the dots, KM's saddle needs to go back more than the 2" I suggested. Also, if back more, it wouldn't be so far off the horse in the rear. Wish I was more handy with the computer. :p

KM, Robbin also had a very good description of where the sweet spot is. Really feel around those shoulders and withers with your hands. Heck, take a picture of a horse's skeleton out there with you or even one of those model skeleton horses! ;) You'll quickly be able to figure out where all those internal structures are and where your saddle should be sitting. Nothing like the good old fashioned hands on method! Experiment with moving your saddle around and you'll notice how the horse's stride will lengthen and shorten based on saddle position. You'll also notice a difference in your balance and if you're behind or ahead of the horse's movement. You could make a play day out of it. Start with giving Khayel a good back and shoulder massage then experiment with saddle placement and a few trips around the arena. You'll both enjoy it.
Gulliver

[RavenToy]

Robbin, Gulliver, Dee, KM - all of you... thank you SO much for this thread. It is really invaluable, truly.

Even if it's giving me a headache. :p

[Dee]

First......I have to thank EVERYONE who posted on this thread. Every little post helped to bring me to my lightbulb moment this morning!

Robin and Guliver: I especially want to thank both of you for your patience, insight and time! Gosh robin you have been just a weatlh of value for me!

I put my auction saddle back on nimbus this morning. I knew it wasn't right, but I didn't know why. I was also having problems remembering where the tree is in the saddle. Every time I put a saddle on nimbus, the tree would seem to cover his shoulders and go back further than it was suppose to. I was getting very confused thinking I was looking at the saddle wrong.

I kept going back and looking at the video on saddle fit.

So, once again this morning I put that saddle up there and just look at it. It doesn't look right. Everything i read says the tree is to be behind the shoulder blade, but every saddle I put on him goes over the shoulder blade. Maybe I';m just stupid.........I donno.

So, I'm feeling around, trying to figure out where in the heck the tree is in there. Now I know it's suppose to be the seat and horn........but heck, it's too long, so that can't be right. :confused:

So I lift the flap under the seat and thank goodness for cheep auction saddles! :D There is no, I mean no padding and I can see the tree and how it's attached to the saddle! :D Now, this is very bad for riding, but perfect for education! I'm so glad I bought that thing!

I'm looking at it, trying to get it! Then boom! the light comes on!
The tree is too long! DUH! In all the info I've picked up and all the places I've checked out about saddle fit..........no one says. "How long is your horses back" NO ONE! They talk about wither width and all that other stuff, but not how long your horses back is. Yeah, the vaugely talk of short backed horses. But they are not clear!

The more I learn about sadddle fit, the madder I get!

My vet is perfect example. I say to her, whould heart's saddle fit nimbus? OH yeah she says, he was a huge hunk of horse the saddle would be plenty wide enough. Well, maybe it is...........but good greif! 4 people could sit on heart and problably still have back room. Nimbus could fit two, maybe!

I measured his back today. 2 fingers back from his sholder blade along the side to his loins. 19 inches on both sides! I need a tree 19 inches or less! Geez. The tree I had on him, that auction tree..........23 inches! :eek:

So now, I know.........wide tree 19 inches long or shorter! YES! NOw I can find a saddle and feel confident that it will fit! YIPPEEE

[Gulliver]

Dee, I could have sworn we talked about length of the bars in one of these threads but that just goes to show you how confusing this can all be. OK, so, now you know you're looking for an Australian saddle with bars 19" or less. Also, remember what I said about not wanting any excess material on a saddle? Even if the bars of the tree are the right length, make sure there's no unnecessary skirting to interfere with that. A 19" tree will do you no good if there's an extra 2" of leather surrounding it. That would add 4" altogether and put the total saddle length at 23". I had a real hard time finding a saddle I liked where the end of the bars was also the end of the saddle.

Not to sway you from your Aussie choice but have you looked at any of the saddles that are made specifically for the Icelandics? They're shaped a lot like Nimbus and they all have very short backs.
Gulliver

[clicka]

Wow this thread is so great! I finally get it too! Robbin you could start a business doing that!
Dee my horse has a short back too. I was positioning my western saddle correctly at first but it looked weird. Too wide. Lower in front and poked right in to her hip. So then I thought oh its to far back.I set it up on her withers and unknowingly cranked it right down over her shoulders. It looked right. level, appeared to fit. Well it quit poking her in the hip so the protesting eased some. But she was still telling me this is not right.

So I just bought another saddle on ebay! Its similar to your first ones.Round skirt, semi quarter, synthetic. I looked at it in the tack shop and the length looked good. So I'm just going to wait for it to arrive and try it on with my new found knwledge!

I went out today and picked up her front foot and pulled it forward and felt around for the edge of the shoulder blade at full extention. It is almost exactly where Robbins pictures show on my horse. About 1 inch toward the head from the low side of the withers. I may have to tie a tag on her mane "place saddle tree here" . :D

heres another web site I found with photos of a saddle fitting session, just for fun
tackcollection.com/html/fitting.html#fitting_pictures

[Dee]

Gulliver: I'm sure we did talk about tree length. I just kept getting confused. Sometimes I am slow. There are times when I have to hear things many, many different ways. It's a minor learning disablilty. Hearing it from you and Robin, then seeing it, then hearing it again, different......then seeing it. :D

Where did I see saddles for Icelandics? I know I did!

I'm re thinking the aussie. All the manufacturing keep telling me I need the endurance model and they are 21 inches long! too long.

I met a women on the haflinger board who sells saddles for haffies and she has one of the draft type like nimbus. She recommeded a Mittenwald. Has anyone heard of these?

After talking to sevreal folks.......I am going back towards an endurance saddle.

Oh Me or My! :eek:

Mindy! thanks for the link.

[Khayels_Mom]

Robbin, Thanks again for the effort involved in pointing out the issues with saddle position etc. I sat down and studed the description and pictures. I found it very useful to create a word document with the post and then the corresponding picture. I believe I understand where the saddle needs to be positioned and why.

I will post a picture later with the saddle positioned correctly (I hope).

I will also post some pictures of Khayel in his dressage saddle. Hopefully the same positioning criteria apply and is supported by this web site

"http://equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/tack_apparel/english/dressagesaddlefit_081105/'.

Picture 2 appears to show the same "sweet spot" with the tree.

[Khayels_Mom]

Dee, try "http://www.just4utack.com/" and select the Saddle/Asso. on the left hand side of the page, the saddle you mention is the third one down.

[Dee]

Pat! that is the saddle I was talking about. It is her shop. But I can't seem to find any other info about the saddle. thanks for finding that for me! :D

[Dee]

Yep, now I remember. I've seen the icelandic saddles. They are english. I need western. :rolleyes:

[Khayels_Mom]

Actually I would suggest the Mittenwald with the western fenders is a hornless western saddle. Dee, do you need the horn?

[Dee]

Here is another cool sight!

"http://schurersaddlefit.com/sss1/sss1_About.html"

Oh Pat...I was saying the islandic saddles are english. my bad!

I really like the looks of that Mittenwald. I just can't seem to find out any info about the manufactures.

[Khayels_Mom]

OK Dee, understand. I did a google search, no luck. Maybe emailing the web site could yield something useful on that particular saddle.

[Khayels_Mom]

Here are before and after pictures of Khayel's saddle where the first picture is too far forward and the second picture is hopefully in a far better position and maybe even in the sweet spot.

[Khayels_Mom]

These pictures are of Khayel's dressage saddle. This saddle was not girthed in these pictures and it seems like the saddle is high in the shoulder picture which is the second picture.

[DreamQuest]

Robbin and Gulliver, on the centerfire rigging, where should the cinch be? Will it come straight down? Or will it be angled toward the front legs? I can see why KM put the saddle so far forward...In the first pic, the cinch is in the "traditional" spot. In the second, it's further back.

KM, two questions about your saddle: which model is that? And do you like the flexible stirrups?

:D

[Khayels_Mom]

DQ, the dressage saddle is the one Nut mentioned in the coop. I bought this from her. I can't remember the name but she did mention it.

[Gulliver]

Geeze, this thread sure moves quickly! :) I wasn't gone that long but it seems like there's a lot to catch up on. On a positive note....I got my Christmas tree up even if it did take my oldest daughter and my grandaughter to get me moving on it. :o

KM, Khayel's saddle looks better sitting back where you moved it but the proof is in the riding. What's Khayel's opinion? I would experiment with putting it back a bit further yet and riding in it. Khayel will tell you if it's not right and it's a great exercise to learn about the horse's construction. I would use the 3 point rigging that the saddle it set up for. I think you'd like it and Khayel would appreciate it too. It's hard for me to tell on the dressage saddle. Looks like his head is down and that's going to skew the view - especially in the shoulder area. How does he move in it? Again, move it back, move it forward and experiment and then let us know how it goes.

I've found that if a saddle is too far forward, most people will "wonder" if it's too far forward but if it's too far back, most will immediately "know" just by looking at it that it's too far back. :o) Not sure why too far back is obvious and too far forward isn't but I do it too. So, I would move it to where you KNOW it's too far back and then incrementally, inch it forward until it looks right. I'd be interested to hear what placement khayel moves best with. Pay particular attention to the length of his stride as you move it around.

Somewhere in these threads, I posted about the 15th vertebrae and I saw it somewhere more recently in regards to the Torsion saddle. I think the jjmaxwell website also addresses it. That 15th vertebrae is where you want your weight centered. I think we've all agreed that the length of the tree has to be correct to allow you to position the saddle off the shoulder area without digging into the loin. Now, HERE'S ANOTHER IMPORTANT POINT.... the saddle also has to be put together in such a way on that tree that the sweet part of the seat, i.e, where your butt settles, is centered and ends up over the correct area of the horse's back. Some of the lesser quality saddles do not fit that criteria. So....it's entirely possible to get a tree of the correct length, that still doesn't put you in the correct spot on the horse's back. Does a saddle have to cost an arm and a leg to fit? Of course not, but your chances of getting a properly balanced and proportioned saddle seem to be in the higher quality range. :p

DQ, With the centerfire rigging, the cinch is going to want to settle into the groove behind the shoulder. Is that the best place for it? That depends on how the saddle sits, how it is balanced, the horse's conformation, etc. Ideally, yes and that would be the simplest solution but I know lots of people who have problems with it and I know lots more who've never had to give it a second thought. It's one of those things that unless it's a problem, you just don't think of. I was told not to worry about it and just concentrate on where the saddle should sit. I went from English rigging to a 3 point system and wish I would have had it years ago. I certainly understand why the endurance riders prefer the 3 point. Aside from balanced weight distribution, it helps you "ignore" where the cinch "wants" to go and let's you concentrate on the saddle placement.

The neat thing with horses is that there are infinite variables. Every horse/rider combination has their own solutions to each problem. Figuring out what works best for each of us is just part of the fun. :p

DQ, you are really noticing things and asking good questions. Dee, KM, anyone who's posting..... you're making us all think and evaluate. Robbin has great info and is so talented with those diagrams. THANKS to all of you!! :D Poor saddle fit is kind of my soap box topic so, I'm just tickled to see so much interest in it. :p
Gulliver

[Angie]

DEEEE !!! Don't give up on Aussies just yet, unless you want to... Kates.net, they have nice Aussies at reasonable prices ~ and one of the ones I like has a 16" contact length. They've got adjustable trees, and all can be ordered with or without a horn :D

[Dee]

Hey Angie! :) I wanted the torsion before, when I didn't know anything. I just loved the way it looked. The way all the horses looked so comfy. I just couldn't find anyone who actually had one and 1000 bucks for unknown was hard to swallow! Durning my guest for the "holy" saddle I have learned so much.

I found a person who has a torsion and loves it. Sherry bought the one on e bay which I will be able to try out on tuesday when she comes to trim! :D

One little bit of infor about the aussies which has me re thinking it. I was told by a very good source, which I havn't checked on yet, that aussies are made for hight withered horses. that the australian horses are highwithered. if this is the case they would make my nimbus miserable. :(

However, if this is the case. they are perfect for you and your paso! :)

[Robbin1]

((((( :eek: )))))) You guy's are making me dizzy! I can only add one thing about a saddle being in the right position. If it's too far back, it will usually want to slide forward until it hits that sweet spot. When you have a properly fitting saddle, it will naturally want to sit in the right spot. Set the saddle on the horse a couple of inches too far forward, then slide the saddle back. You should feel it settle into the right spot IF the saddle is the right fit. When it's in the right spot, you can gently try to slide the saddle forward and backwards, but the saddle won't want to go anywhere.

If your saddle has center-fire rigging, you probably don't want to use a three point system, I think it will have a tendancy to pull the saddle forward. A three point rigging should bring the front and back towards the center, like this \/, you don't want this |/, which is what you'd have with a three point cinch on center-fire rigging. If you have center-fire rigging, use the back cinch.

KM, your saddle looks much better further back, however, the picture you took is at a different angle so it's harder to tell. Like Gulliver said though the true test is how well your horse goes. As far as all that 15th vertebrae stuff, I really can't remember doodly-squat if it gets too confusing! :p Some people have the brain capacity for that stuff, not me! Take the saddle off; sit on your horse, now walk and trot, canter if you can. That spot that you're sitting in... that's where you want to be in a saddle too. Sometimes on a bareback horse, you will keep sliding too far forward and get killed by the wither so you keep pushing yourself slightly back. Thats the spot.

In this picture, I've drawn the place where you want you weight to be in hot pink. If you are an english rider, your weight will probably be in a more forward postition. I've labeled this area #2 in black. If if you are a western rider, your weight will probably be towards the back portion of this area which I've labeled #1 in yellow. Of course, anywhere inbetween is fine. The blue area is definitely too far back.

[Angie]

Hey Angie! :) I wanted the torsion before, when I didn't know anything. I just loved the way it looked. The way all the horses looked so comfy. I just couldn't find anyone who actually had one and 1000 bucks for unknown was hard to swallow! Durning my guest for the "holy" saddle I have learned so much.

I found a person who has a torsion and loves it. Sherry bought the one on e bay which I will be able to try out on tuesday when she comes to trim! :D

One little bit of infor about the aussies which has me re thinking it. I was told by a very good source, which I havn't checked on yet, that aussies are made for hight withered horses. that the australian horses are highwithered. if this is the case they would make my nimbus miserable. :(

However, if this is the case. they are perfect for you and your paso! :)
Hi Dee ! Nope, my lil Drummer has really low withers !! He's wide and short backed, which is what the Aussies are supposed to be GOOD with... one of the reasons I'm so drawn to the ones I'm looking at on Kates, that have a contact length of 16" as opposed to the 21 or more inches I've seen for most.

The Torsion ~ I have to say, I was really getting into it, based on the site and the people talking about loving it so well ~ UNTIL it hit me like a board over the head that its just basically a really nice, really well formed, bareback pad. Which, still seems really appealing.... but not at their prices. :)

Right now I'm really leaning toward the Aussies, and maybe also an Abetta ~ I can get the TWO saddles for HALF of what the OrthoFlex would cost me. :eek:

[Dee]

Ok!!! Sherry showed up today with my Torsion if I want it! :D

So far I like it........look at how comfy it looks on him. :D

Oh my gosh! He's so cute! :eek:

[Dee]

And a close up....


Ok, I'm running off to ride my pony and try out the saddle some more! :D

(wonder how long it would take me to get to Days End???????????????) ;)

[DreamQuest]

Cool saddle, Dee. Does it slide around when you try to mount from the ground? Or do you just jump right on Nimbus without using stirrups? :p :D

[Robbin1]

Soooo.... do you like it?

[Mary~F]

Dee, I am dying to know what you think about the Torsion. It looks really close to the Barefoot saddle I am considering. I really am curious to know how sturdy it is. Does it seem like a glorified barback pad, or is it more like a really comfy saddle?

[Dee]

Well, I rode with it about an hour last night. I switched between it and the bareback pad to see if I could feel a difference in the way he moved.

It is very comfortable. The flap you see on the seat covers the sturrip holders(I don't know what they are called) and is padded with a waffle type stuff. I'll get a picture if you want.

It doesn't have a deep seat. I'll see if Kathy can get a picture of me sitting in it so you can see how it sits. She rode in it and really liked it.

I am having problems balancing in it. I think because the sturrips are set center to put your feet under you like balanced endurance. It seems to be a cross between english and endurance.

The sturrips leathers that came with it are too short for me (it was used) so I am going to put longer ones on it today and try it again tonight.

I feel right now that my only issue is with the sturrips being too short. I can also get western fenders for it if I like.

I have to ride totally different and getting my balance is going to take a few rides.

I think it will help me be a better rider.

So far! I really like it! :D

Its' better than any other saddle I';ve ever used.........but not as good as the bareback pad. ;)

[Dee]

Cool saddle, Dee. Does it slide around when you try to mount from the ground? Or do you just jump right on Nimbus without using stirrups? :p :D


DQ. It stayed in place just like a treed saddle. I mounted from the ground just to find out. And yes I used stirrups. :p It does not feel at all like a bareback pad, but like a stable treed saddle. I hope that helped. :)

[Mary~F]

Dee, I am really excited to hear how you like this saddle with longer fenders. I know this one is a Torsion, but it looks exactly like the Barefoot saddle that I would like to get someday. Have you heard of any comparisons on the two? The Torsion costs quite a bit more. Not sure why, other than they came out first and are the "original", I think.

[Angie]

Yea, that was what threw me off the Torsions, they're basically a really nicely padded bareback pad with stirrups, and I just couldn't see paying that much for a bareback pad !

[Dee]

Angie..........have you actually ridden in a torsion?

I ask because after you said that..........I was very excited about it. I was like YEAH! Bareback with pommel, cantel and sturrips. PERFECT!

They are not! they are like a treed saddle.

[Angie]

Nope, I've not actually ridden a torsion. I just researched their site and info.

I said that because there's nothing solid or ... formed... in there, its just all soft material, shaped like a saddle, leather, fleece, cordura, and foam. Thats what I meant. Nice cushy pad shaped like a saddle.

I was all excited about them at first myself. But new, they're over $900 ~ up to $1200.

[Dee]

I said that because there's nothing solid or ... formed... in there, its just all soft material, shaped like a saddle, leather, fleece, cordura, and foam. Thats what I meant. Nice cushy pad shaped like a saddle.


Angie........this is just not true. It does have shape and form. It is solid. It's not just all soft material. It IS very comfortable. Mine is totally synthic.

I'm sorry, but I am going to say it again. It is NOT a nice cushy pad shaped like a saddle. :p

Mary.........if you want, or anyone else, :D let me know and I will post pictures of the underside and anything else you may want details about! :D

[Angie]

Wow, OK ~ don't get upset, :p

I'm just going by the information on their own website, I listed the materials that THEY said they were made from.

No big deal though, different strokes for different folks.

[Dee]

It's ok Angie!

Wow, if they say it's a glorified bareback pad. They are really misrepresenting themselves as far as I'm concerned. :eek:

Gee...........I guess I better go back and look at the web sight better. ;)

[Angie]

I didn't say they said it was a glorified saddle pad, I said I listed the materials that they say its made with ~ the leather, fleece, foam, cordura. I tried to cut and paste their description of its construction, but their site doesn't allow that. :) But I do think you can get a removeable wood pommel ;)

[rodandmicha]

Dee, I bought a Bob Marshall treeless saddle for my haflinger and I just looooooveee my BM!!!! Since my boy is no longer ridable :( I won't have a problem to fit it any future horse (should there be one....)
Micha

[Mary~F]

Yes Dee, please take pictures of any views you think may be useful. I have also read alot about using special pads with this type of saddle. What are you going to use? That is if you get it.
I watched a video of me riding my horse this summer, and I was using my sons very uncomfy cheapo saddle, my horse was constantly wringing her tail. I am almost certain it was a saddle issue. I don't think my saddle fits her much better.

[Dee]

Mary........the saddle I'm trying out is at this sight.

"http://www.gotreeless.com/synthetic.htm"

It is the second one down......the standard. the cantle is wood and the pommel is soft formed something softer than wood but firmer than foam.

Right now I'm using a plain navajo blanket, but If I get the saddle I will buy the pad that is reccommed with it, which is the Supracor and it is pricy! :eek:

I asked around about the barefoot saddle and can't find anyone who has actually used one. It is a copy of the torsion. Sometimes copies can be better. I would suggest you ask the barefoot folks to give you some references.

I rode in the torsion again last night with longer sturrips and really liked it better! I think it is going to help my riding quite a bit. I can still feel nimbus moving and I like that alot.


Micha: I'm glad the Bob Marshal worked for you! I tried one, It was way too big for little nimbus and was uncomfortable to me. I was really disapointed.

The torsion does feel like there is less saddle between me and nimbus. I liked that.

Isn't it great that there are so many saddles that work! :D

[Robbin1]

Dee, I'm glad you're enjoying the saddle. I tried a treeless dressage saddle once. I can't remember the name of it, but it was a really nice ride. It had leather and everything, everything but the tree! Very pricey though, so I passed.

[Mary~F]

Any new news on this saddle Dee?
Have you had anymore rides in it?

[Dee]

NO Mary............the powers that be are conspiring to make the end of 2005 very hard to even get near my pony! :(

I plan to ride tomorrow.........I;ll let ya know. :D

Mary......If you are thinking about getting a new horse........the saddle issue can wait. :)

[Mary~F]

Dee, I was thinking maybe it was more of a saddle issue interfering with our relationship. If she was more comfortable when being ridden maybe she would be more responsive. I don't know. I just wanna do what is right by her. She is a pretty wide horse for her height. About 14.2 hh and about 950 pounds at least. So kind of short and wide. She also will try to nip or pin her ears when tightening the girth, and sometimes kick at her belly/girth area after being tacked up. I know these are all signs you and others have mentioned of poor saddle fit. I thought if this horse didn't work out the saddle would still be useable on others because of its design. I am still a few months out on buying a saddle anyway so I got time to decide either way. ;)

[Dee]

Mary, you are right.......the torsion would fit any horse and YES, YES, YES a bad saddle fit can for sure mess up your progress with your current horse!

Good thinking!

[Dee]

Mary..........I belong to a Haffie group on Yahoo. I got this e mail about the barefoot saddle today and thought I would share it for you.

Dee,

Here is something I posted some months ago on the Barefoot:
I hope it is helpful.
####

I have two Barefoots, a large and a medium and I shopped extensively before
buying them. They were $640 each and I also have Equipedic pads (another
$200 or so) which I use with the Barefoot. One needs stirrup leathers that
fit the Barefoot system and my Webbers did not < so I had to buy a set for
another $50. My Barefoot saddles are the oddly named English style
³Cheyenne². I use a dressage style girth on them which was another $40 or
so. I think the other saddle mfg who has a similar product and is the
direct competitor is named Torsion but their price was way higher < maybe
$800 and I think they had a fairly long delivery time. There is also an
Italian treeless saddle mfg named Freeform which as a sumptuous buffalo hide
product and a price ticket to match.

Barefoot saddles are well made, have lots of rings from which to hang stuff
and are comfortable on the old derriere. One minor complaint: they squeak
somewhat after being used for a while but I think some leather conditioner
or such will get rid of that. I like treeless saddles for my haflingers
because they are so darned round. I absolutely believe the Barefoot is
comfortable for the horse. The sweat pattern is even and, IMO, the design
and the pad spread the rider¹s weight very well. I much prefer the Barefoot
to my other treeless saddle, a Bob Marshall Sports version. I bought mine
from Candace Kahn at: http://www.boaboots.com There was some confusion
over shipping but she was very reachable via phone, eager to help and
knowledgeable. I believe she is in WA or OR or northern CA.

I don¹t think there is much value in comparing the Barefoot (or any treeless
saddle) to conventional saddles. Riding treeless is a different experience
and I¹ve seen many people say it took a little getting used to but, once
they were accustomed to the differences, they liked it. That was my
experience. In addition to fitting the haflingers, treeless saddles also
happen to suit my style of riding which is exclusively trail riding, often
for 6 or 8 hours at a time in fairly rough country. My 14 year old
daughter gives them a positive review and one adult friend who has used them
also liked it once she got used to the stirrup position.

The stirrup position on the Barefoot is very different from anything I¹ve
used before and is disconcerting at first. They seem to be set further back
than is usual. I have read that this positioning forces the rider to adopt
a more balanced and correct position but I do not know if that is accurate
(mostly because I¹m really not sure what constitutes a balanced and correct
position).

A treeless saddle forces the rider to spread his legs further apart since
they must more closely follow theb shape of the horse. This results in a
new, though temporary, set of muscle aches. and I do take issue with one
thing: treeless enthusiasts claim the treeless saddle allows the rider to
feel the horse much better. They say the rider can communicate better
through the seat and can better feel the horse bend and move under them <
that it is similar to riding bareback. I think this is hogwash. Fact is,
the folks who sell treeless saddles all recommend using a saddle pad such as
the Equipedic. These have panels of high density foam which are designed
to absorb moisture and heat and spread weight. Believe me, you cannot feel
very much through them!

Because the Equipedic pad consists of two panels which sit on either side of
the horse¹s back, I believe they solve the left/right slippage problem that
one would expect when riding a round barreled horse. In any event, I¹ve not
had any problem with left to right slippage though my saddle does tend to
slip back towards Joe¹s tail sometimes when we are riding steep trails. I
don¹t find this a problem < if I did, I would get a breast-thingy and a
crupper.

In summary, when it comes to hacking about or trail riding, I feel that
treeless saddles are perfect for haflingers because they fit them so well.

As to the rider < that is a matter of preference. While I may sound like a
treeless convert I am not. In some ways I would prefer to use my Wintec
Endurance saddle < the problem is that even with the very widest gullet it
pinches Joe and causes white spots because, as a fairly typical haflinger,
he has no withers to speak of and the cross section of a bratwurst.

[Mary~F]

Ahhh, thank you so much Dee for posting that!
It sounds very encouraging for the barefoot saddle.
However, as much as I would love to save the extra $$$, if you start hearing stuff like "the Torsion is sooo much better because of blah blah blah", please also let me know, because I would be willing to spend the extra in that case.

[Dee]

Mary...........I just read this e mail again and there are a few things that bother me that you might want to check out.........one was all the extras he had to buy adding up the price of the barefoot to close to the price of the torsion.

torsion is made in Italy.

I also don't agree that you don't connect with your horse........I do.

[Mary~F]

I noticed all the extras adding up also. Are those things included in the torsion price? I thought things like fenders/stirrup leathers, stirrups, girth straps were also seperate for the torsion. Or do you get those in one set price?

[Dee]

Mary..........I really don't know since mine is used and already has the fenders, sturrips and girth.

YOu know.......once you figure out what you want.............

go look at used ones! They have a used saddle page on the torsion page.........wait a minute........I'll find it for you.

"http://www.gotreeless.com/used.htm"

The one I have in my barn this very minute is the 5th picture down.......the one that says "think christmas"

The one right below it is the same exact saddle only with more goddies. A much better deal than I got.

[Mary~F]

Dee, now to get really personal....It says a size 15" comparable to size 16" english...isn't that a 14" western then? I wear a jeans size 4, and sometimes I feel like my 15" western saddle is a snug fit. But I don't have much experience yet and have never asked at a tack shop/saddle fitter what size saddle seat they think I should be using. How would you compare the 15" torsion to your saddle size?

[Dee]

Mary........I ride a 15" seat western. The torsion is a good fit. Sherry (my trimmer who is teaching me all this treeless stuff) said her hubby rode in a 15 inch torsion with no problem and said mine could too.

Maybe because the seat is not "set" it adjusts??? I have no clue.

Bet the torsion folks could help you with that one!

Wow! YOu wear a size 4 and think a 15 is snug!? WOW. I wear a size 6 to 8 depending on the cut and think a 15 is perfect. :D

[Dee]

Mary. I rode in the Torsion again today. the more I use it the better I like it!

I really really like and and as of right now am going to buy it.

It helps me ride better. Its comfortable, fits my nimbus and gives me exaclty what I want. :D

[Mary~F]

Dee, I am so happy for you and your CUTE pony! Being comfy can only help your relationship. I hope it works out for me to get one and I have the same success! ;)

[Gulliver]

Dee, I've been up to my eyeballs in "stuff" lately and have only been able to get on here sporadically but I just wanted to say that I'm glad you've found a saddle that makes both you and Nimbus happy. :) :)

Saddle fit is such an individual thing. Whatever works best for the two of you is what's right and it looks like you've found the solution! Yay!!!!!!
Gulliver

[justbcos]

I hope you don't mind me resurrecting this thread - I joined the board after all this discussion took place, and now I'm having saddle issues. I've read every post on this thread, which has really helped, but just want to check with you guys on a couple of points (plus, this is a good thread and I would hate for it to roll off into oblivion) ...

1) Winny is an angel at the walk - her head is low and balanced, she's relaxed, all is well. But when I've asked her to go into a trot, she does it, but with ears pinned back. She's just not an "ears pinned back" kind of horse normally - I attributed this to poor saddle fit - do you agree this could be the problem?

2) I bought one inexpensive saddle several months ago when I thought I was going to be owning a different horse, so it wasn't bought with her in mind. It doesn't "round" with her body, and it is slippy even when cinched tight. So I went to borrowing various saddles from a friend of mine who has quite a collection. One didn't fit me, the next one gave me the ear-pinning, but was really comfortable for me. When she walked with that saddle cinched tight but empty, the back of the saddle floated above her rear a little bit - that's a problem, right? Is that because the tree is too narrow? My friend's horses are high-withered and she looks for Semi-QH bars saddles, is that my problem? (**NOTE: the first day I put the 3rd saddle on her, she seemed quite happy, but it was with a borrowed pad, when I put it on her with my pad, she went to the ear-pinning - OR was I masking a problem with the pad)?

3) Following up from the previous question... In my research into the whole "bars" thing, it sounds like I should get a saddle that has "standard" QH bars, not semi (high-withered narrow horses) nor full bars (fat, round, flat-withered horses). But everybody seems to market their saddles as either semi or full. Which should I go with?

4) Is the "slippy" a problem just because I'm a very large person? I weigh more than I ought to, and every saddle I've tried has been slippy when I mount, even though I get them cinched tight. Do I need to just deal with it until I lose some of this poundage?

Thanks for your help, all. Sorry for so many questions.

I'll try to get pictures tonight if my camera cooperates and I can get there in daylight.

[justbcos]

Hi everybody - just bumping this up since there have been some questions about saddle fit lately...

[Tripledeuce]

Bump,,,,,,bump,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,bump!!!!!!!!!


Terry

[DreamRider]

thank you for bumping this Terry, I never saw it. I remember when I started out with Syrus, there was two saddles I could use at the stables, one was a small (don't know type) close fitting saddle and the other a much larger heavier saddle. I used the larger one on Syrus as he was the bigger horse and I was told it's the one he was use to.

When it came time for me to purchase a saddle we started shopping at consignment stores. We found a colorado saddle co. saddle. Small, light weight, and had some great qualities. It's a newer saddle as the people only used it 3 or 4 times before they sold the horse.

I also baught a theropudic pad to go underneith. This saddle has sheepskin under it. Between both I have eliminated 1. Syrus moving away from me when saddleing. 2. Syrus trying to bite at me while saddleing 3. Syrus throwing his head around while under saddle 4. Syrus choosing what he wants rather than listening to me while being ridden.

I have gained 1. More trust from my horse 2. Syrus stands completely still while saddleing 3. No more acting up while working in the arena 4. Less attempts to bitting.

Syrus now gets impataint to having his bridle put on, he puts it on for me all I have to do is hold onto the briddle and let him put his head through. Before, I couldn't get the bridle over his ears.

I believe saddle makes all the difference in performance. Don't stop at cost, go for comfort, both you and your horse deserve it.

[justbcos]

Bumpity Bump Bump! :)

[kayla]

Maybe I need to post photos, but I'm glad this thread is back up. I'm thinking my saddle doesn't fit.

My horse has a very short and very flat back. She has low withers with a big barrel. As far as I can tell, she's built just like an arabian.

I currently have her in a saddle that has arabian bars. It's made by Big Horn. In the back near the cantle, you can see the saddle wanting to pop up. No matter how much I cinch, it seems to want to roll. In part, I think it's her build. Where most horses have some slope that a saddle just wants to sit in...she isn't built like that. It's like there is nothing for the saddle to gain purchase.

My new saddle pad is helping. It's got waffle/grippy stuff that helps the saddle stay put. But I also think the saddle is too long for her short back and might be digging into her loins.

I read stuff about saddle fit and mostly my head spins.

I feel pretty comfy in the Big Horn, but I suspect my horse isn't all that comfy.

Shouldn't the back of the saddle look like it conforms to the horse to at least some extent??

[kayla]

Here's a horse photo that might help though I'm not sure it really shows.

[lvfreida]

Me too!! I read and re-read but just can not quite figure out saddle fit. I know my saddle is no longer fitting Honey and I need a new one. She, too, has a short back and not so prominent withers. Her saddle is now leaving dry spots on the withers and "sticks" up in back. When I went on the trail ride, I had to get off several times because the saddle was sliding forward unto her neck when going down hill. The saddle I am using now is a Circle Y with semi-QH bars. She is a relatively small horse so I wonder if full QH bars will be too big. (Anyone want a good used saddle? LOL)

I am thinking I will download the templates at this site:
horsesaddleshop.com/www.horsesaddleshop.com/allabsadands.html

and try to determine gullet and tree size to see if that helps me figure things out.

[Misty1]

Just found this thread, posting to subscribe to it - I need a couple hours to read through and study it! Going back to the beginning - and if it's in here, sorry - I have an OTTB that's kinda high withered and thin through the top of the back, but with, let's say 'well sprung' rib cage (read between the lines: getting a little chubby). My County Competitor Dressge saddle fits him fairly well but I'm not sure about my western saddle. I'd like to see if it fits comfortably so I can trail ride - I just want to go around the farm but I'd be alone, he needs some more despooking... anyway, what shots would be best to take in the hopes I'd be able to post them for help? TIA for any and all help and advice!
Amy

[justbcos]

I'd take a picture straight from the side, unsaddled, and then also with your saddle on him, as close to the same angle as possible.

If you can also show a close up shot (saddled) in the pommel/withers area, and also straight from the back, that would be good.

[Just Me]

Dee...thanks so much for starting this thread!!! I think that as a thank you, though, we should all pitch in and get her some new gloves. I noticed every pair she wears is missing a finger or two! LOL!!!!!

Okay...I think I'm either understanding this better, or perhaps more confused. :confused:

I'm going to post a pic of Gracie in the saddle I've been riding her in. I don't have a lot from different angles, but I can get them!!!!

[Just Me]

I just realized that these are with the pad. Let me know if I should take some without the pad. We did check it on her without the pad.

[Just Me]

And here is is naked. Shhh!!!! :D

[Just Me]

I just realized this is an old thread that has been brought back to life. I'm so blonde, that sometimes I think about getting my hair died black. :D

Thanks Terry for bringing it back. I sure could use some help! And good luck to everyone else who is trying to fit a saddle. It's hard, isn't it?

[justbcos]

It looks pretty good from a quick glance, I need to spend more time studying... the only thing I thought was that maybe it is interfering with her shoulder? I couldn't tell if the back edge of her shoulder was coming in under the tree or not, and maybe you could just scootch the saddle back a little bit?

Anybody else think the shoulder looks constrained? Or is it OK?

[Just Me]

JB...I always want to put the saddle farther back, but if my daughter is there, she scoots it forward on me. :o

I think it looks too far forward in this picture.

I did send these pics to a saddle fitter, and she said it looked like it fit. But Grace is still a little bit snarfy about cinching and mounting. She's fine to ride, though.

We also noticed that the second horse we got from Gracie's previous owners is a bit grouchy about saddling. We watched them tack up, and they have a strange way of cinching. We are inclined to think that both mares behavior is because of that.

The saddle in the pics is my daughter's saddle. I don't have mine back yet, but as I've said before...it's the same saddle.

[Tripledeuce]

It looks,to me,,,to be a little to far forward....

Also,it looks a little long on her back.....

Terry

[Just Me]

I keep forgetting something else about this saddle, and Gracie's behavior.

When we got Gracie, my daughter and I started riding her in this saddle. She had no negative behavior, and seemed extremely comfy in it. I would then put my english saddle on her, and she had some bad behvior, so we switched back to this one, and everything was fine. ( My english was too narrow)

Anyway...I rode in this one for a long time, and everything was fine. Gracie was very comfy. So I bought one of my own. That's when things went down hill. That one had something wrong with it( I'm sure you all know that saga), and she started some bad behavior, trying to tell me something was wrong. We stopped using that one, and have gone back to this one exclusively. Now she just pins her ears, ( sometimes...not always), when we girth, and walks away when mounting. She was kicking when mounting, and trying to bite, but has stopped that.

Could this all be because of the defective saddle, and her having bad memories of it?

I get so mad when I think about that other saddle! :mad:

[Tripledeuce]

Yes,,,,,It could..............

It could also be that,because of "natural changes",,,more muscling,or less.etc.....that this saddle dosen't quite fit at this time..............

Terry

[Misty1]

Thank you, justbcos, for the tips! Amazing Grace, I feel your pain. I was always fairly good at seeing if a saddle did or didn't fit a horse's back, but never thought about the shoulder. Then I took some Dressage lessons from a lady that has a lot of back pain (so she had a LOT more understanding of physics and anatomy and physiology from her own standpoint and researching the horse's), and I rode her old Tennessee Walker that would misbehave (slightly, just stop or turn at the walk) when the saddle slid forward on his shoulder - he has a HUGE shoulder... made me start to pay a LOT more attention. I have an OTTB, so I'm not sure, my saddle always looks like it's sitting too far back but when you feel under it for the scapula... there you have it. A couple of the shots are going to require a ladder, too, btw. Like I said, he's an OTTB, and a rescue, and I love him... but he's 17hh and I'm 5'5" so... I need to rappel (sp?) off his withers for these shots LOL I do find that the saddle fit changes a LOT with his muscling, too. Thanks again everyone!
Amy

[kayla]

He has high withers, but he's wide through the shoulders. He also has a short back. I have no clue how to go about trying to fit him for a western saddle. What size bars?

[justbcos]

Bump for Lippizan Keeper!