Getting a little frustrated

[leeleeb1]

Hi everyone ,, I am very new here and I need encouragement. I have only been around horses for about 4 years,, and things don't seem to be going very easy... I started taking lessons at a small farm ,things seem to going good,, I was having a very hard time with the trott and was pretty nervous,, My trainer was getting frustrated and it showed,, any way ,, I kept taking lesson (she was not certified trainer) My husband decided to buy a 6 month old mare,, (I know newbies shouldn't buy babies) We did really well with her,, she picks up her feet she stands so quiet ,, She is really good to work with. Then the problems started,,, The place we boarded at started treating us badly,, full of promised,, never coming through,,, anyway ,then we found out that Dakota ( the little mare ) had severe arthritis in her back feet and we probably would never be able to ride her.. Then my husband decide to buy another horse,, Joe Joe An Arab Thoroughbred gelding 16 hands with attitude,, I told my husband we would never be able to handle him,, The Owners of the barn assured us that they would help with training and handleing ,, I was scared to death of him,, Any way it turned out we had no help.. so we decided to move them to a training facility to train both Him (Joe Joe) and I The trainer there was doing great with him for the first 3 maybe 4 weeks then every thing stopped,, I didn't have a good vibe about the care my horses were getting ,, so we decided to bring them home,, we built a small 4 stall barn and brought them home,,Dec 31st 2005,,( with the help of the police) Anyway,, the horses loved their new home and seemed happy,, I got use to Joe Joe and now love him to death. Now I have a little mareDakota she is 3 years old now ,, who not always, but sometime comes at you with front hooves flying and back end kicking. I had a trainer coming in to work with Joe and I and we were doing really well,, I was actually riding him with confidence,, then one day without warning he decided to arch his back and not let me on him,,we have also went through a bad accident with Dakota ,, Joey ran her into a tree and she tore her side and some of the muscle and now every night around 4 or 5 Joey runs Dakota and I have to seperate them ,,He is always running her and she comes in almost every night with something wrong with her 2 nights ago butt was swollen and a bit lame :confused:

Sorry about rambling but I am getting frustrated ,, Is this a test to see if I can handle horses,, All I want is to be able to ride and enjoy my horses but they don't seem to want that ... I love being around them and want to learn soooo bad I am so attached to these horse I don't want to give up on them

[dueces_r_wild2002]

Hugs! And welcome to the board. Alot of us know how you feel, we often get frustrated. That is the beauty of this board. There is alot of help and advice and support here!

I am sorry your other barn situations and lessons did not work out. You have just not found the "right" help yet. Maybe having them at home gives you extra funds to find a GOOD trainer?

I do not have answers about Joey being a bully. Is this right around feeding time?

Have you searched for JL trainers in your area? What state are you in..possibly someone here could help find a person to help you.

Read some posts in Training. Maybe something in there can help you get started on your own. There is a lot of good subjects and posts there..you can also check archives.

best of luck to you...
Sue

[sugarfoot]

Welcome to the wonderful world of horses:rolleyes: Where nothing seems to be as one would think....:D Owning horses is never like in the movies, as you are quickly finding out. It's a heck of a lot more than dogs or cats....and that's why most people who get into horses get out within the first few months/years of owning horses.

Those that stick around do so because they have learned through trial and error..basically, the only way to learn about horses...:rolleyes:

We've all been there done that, and yet we're all still nuts enough to still be here with horses!:D


That said, let's get to your problems:

Now I have a little mareDakota she is 3 years old now ,, who not always, but sometime comes at you with front hooves flying and back end kicking.

We need more detail here. You are feeding her and she comes at you? You are trying to halter her and she does this? when does she do this and what do YOU do when she does. That's really the important question...not what the horse is doing but what YOU do....the reason I say that is because, if you are running away when she does this, then you are training her to do it more. She is learning that in order to be rid of you (pressure) all she has to do is come at you and you leave. It works. If that's not what you do...then....?

I had a trainer coming in to work with Joe and I and we were doing really well,, I was actually riding him with confidence,, then one day without warning he decided to arch his back and not let me on him
There's not enough info here either. What do mean arch his back...like a cat? Just got "humpy" and that was that? You didn't get on him?
How does the saddle fit? how do you mount up? Do you grab the saddle only and pull your way up? Do you square him up before you get on?

we have also went through a bad accident with Dakota ,, Joey ran her into a tree and she tore her side and some of the muscle and now every night around 4 or 5 Joey runs Dakota and I have to seperate them ,,He is always running her and she comes in almost every night with something wrong with her 2 nights ago butt was swollen and a bit lame Sounds like these two might not have enough room to be together. In the horse world, one is dominant the other is submissive. If the dominant one feels the need to keep pushing the other around, he will til he feels he doesn't need to anymore. It's a horse thing. It's a pecking order thing that no human can really tangle with when the horses are free and on their own....they have to figure it out for themselves....

BUT I would recommend separating them, since it doesn't sound like there's enough room for this kind of stuff. Let's say, you had 5 acres and two horses. That's more than enough room for the submissive one to get away and stay safer. If you have them in a small paddock area, because the gelding is so dominant, it may be a long time before you stop seeing your mare getting hurt.

[sugarfoot]

I would really really recommend getting the Communication with Cues books, or better yet, the Ground Control Manual.....because these are awesome reference books for horse behavior and what you can do to help yourself understand them and teach them to get along with you.

The GCM is pretty expensive, but worth it, but if you can't afford that right now, the Communication with Cues books are the next best thing. They cost only about $20 each, there's 3 of them....and a book called Lyons on Horses that explain lots about the horse world and what we can do to help the horse live in ours.

good luck! and please keep posting!;)

[leeleeb1]

thanks for replying ,,

The little mare comes at you when you go out in the paddock to open the gate or get something or just to walk out to see her,, nothing in hand,, the other day I spotted a piece of wood that came out of the mud so I was just going in to get she came around the corner with her head shaking and she was on a mission (to get me out) she turned and walked away then I tried again and she came at me again feet just a flying she also has her trade mark squeal,, she is a brat but I love her to death,, she is an angel in the crossties, when doing her feet, she stands for brushing, you can do just about anything to her and she won't complain,, but she gets in these moods and she is a little scarey, many times I have had to walk in the paddock with my crop.. As for Joey,, well he is fine all day,, they play halters with each other they eat together and no fighting just at night usually around dusk,before it gets dark,, they start,,, lately it has been around 5 o'clock,, I took them of grain at night,, when they come in but doesn't seem to help,, Joey was on a product called quietex at the other barn but when we brought him home we took him off it,, I recently started it again to see if this would calm him down,, it didn't ,,I think it was a waste of money.

[sugarfoot]

leeleeb1,

But still...what is it that YOU do when your mare comes at you? do you leave? sounds like you leave or back off? Correct?

I would suggest carrying a crop with you at all time for now....just to tell her to back away, stay back and be respectful of your space. So, if she would come uninvited into your space, using the crop to tell her no, she was not invited in, stay back til she is allowed near you. This kind of behavior MUST be dealt with consistently if you want it to stop. So, til she behaves all the time well with you, I'd recommend the crop just as a safety measure. And not punishment, just as a way to teach her to remain out of your space without you needing to get close to her-- it's an extension of your arm, in other words, not a weapon:)


Also, what about the "arched back" in the gelding?:confused:

[jumpinghorses]

Welcome to the board. Sorry you are in such a bad situation. Since your problems are so severe I highly suggest you work with a professional asap. The trainer does not need to be certified because there is no governing body. Any certification comes through private businesses and still doesn't have any guarantees (I have even heard bad things about some JL certs, there is just no way to keep tabs on them). Get some recommendations from other horse people that are local to you and check each trainer out thoroughly. Watch them work with horses. Have them come out and meet your horses, tell them you want to know what they think of them before you decide to hire them. Watch how they handle your horses and deal with the issues. Listen to what they think is going on and how they would go about fixing it. If those things mesh and you have a good gut feeling about the trainer go for it. If you have a bad gut feeling walk away from that trainer. Make sure you see the other horses in their care so you can see that they are happy and well cared for. Also keep in mind that every trainer has someone out there that wasn't happy with them, that doesn't make them a bad trainer unless there are a lot of people unhappy with them.


I have a question too, have you had the horses checked for pain issues especially your riding horse. It sounds like he is in pain from your description of how he "all of a sudden" started to hollow his back and not want you on him.

If the horses are not getting along you need to separate them. If that means that you have to split up your pasture or their pasture time then that is what you need to do. Keep one in at night and one in during the day. That way they are still getting a lot of pasture time each but Joe Joe can't hurt Dakota.

Until you get help with Dakota I would carry a whip with you when you are around her and if she strikes at you strike back. Her behavior is very aggressive and very dangerous and you need to think about protecting yourself. Avoid putting yourself in a position for her to come for you until you get some respect from her. Send her away every time she even looks at you funny. Don't wait for her feet to start coming for you. There are many signs before that that you need to learn to recognize from an experienced horse person.

Good luck.

[leeleeb1]

I do back away,, because I don't think she will,, I will start caring the crop :) Do I just point it at her?? I don't like to use it on them,, but if I have to . :(

As for Joey,, he was doing really well he hadn't been riden for 6 months or so,, I found a trainer ,, we have a hard time saddleing him up but once the saddle was on he was fine,, she road him ,, and he tested her,, but she didn't give in ,, then I got up on him and rode him he listened okay, but we needed the crop,, she said he wouldn't move off her leg , just wouldn't move over,, I think it was my third or 4th ride on him he was perfect,, saddled quiet ,, and listened to everything I did,, stop start, trott walk everything on command,, then the next lesson He didn't want anything to do with us,, He would move toward you when we saddled him,, he'd stomp his feet, swish his tail,, When we finally did get him saddled I went to get up on him and he wouldn't stand still I use a step stool to get up he is very high,, when i got up she still had him attached to the lunge line we thought we would walk a bit,, I nudged him to move on and nothing happened I nudged a bit more and he swung his but toward my trainer I tried to move him over and I could feel him doing a little dance with his back feet ,, we took a few steps forward again and then I felt his back come up and his front feet come off the ground all the while still dancing with his back feet ,, he scared the --- out of me and I got off,, She lunged him again,, at a lope and she tried to get on him,, she fought with him to move forward and manage to get 3 times around the ring,, but ever since he just doesn't want to listen at all.. He is a very intimidating horse standing 16 hands and 1100 pounds,, I new it was a bad idea to get him ,, because I am so new ,, The problem with Joey is when he is good ,, he is sooo good,, floats at the trott,, He is a very smooth ride ,, but when he is not paying attention he gets a little dangerous., spooks easy and has an attitude. I don't know too much about his previous owner ,, only she had him since he was a baby , the owner was very timid,, he had a bad geld, and Joe bucked her off and she became afraid of him..

[leeleeb1]

Thanks for the advice, :)

We checked his back for pain,, but he didn't do any thing,, just stood there,, I haven't had the vet out,, but she is due to come,, I talked to a vet and all she said was attitude,, The vet that has been helping Dakota is coming out to do teeth soon so I will talk to her about Joe

thanks again

[justbcos]

Just from what you've written about the trainer, and I'm sure there's more to the story, but it sounds to me like your trainer is kindof a "do it yourselfer" - not that there's anything inherently wrong with it - but there are some things that I would want a trainer to differently if it were me and my horse - for example:

1) The trainer should start with groundwork to see what the horse does or does not know. It sounds like your horse may not have a go-forward cue, learning that should start on the ground.

2) The trainer should stop and fix a problem when it's found, not keep moving to the next thign - for example, mounting is one of the most vulnerable times for us when we're riding. If your horse won't stand still while you're mounting, the trainer should be teaching him to WANT to stand still. Also, the saddling issue - that might be a pain thing, I seriously wonder if your saddle fits- your trainer should be able to help you assess that.

3) You say she fought with him - it should never be a fight, because I guarantee you a horse can win any fight he really wants to... I want a trainer who teaches the horse, helps him understand how to find the release of pressure, doesn't fight with him.

There are some good threads on here about "what to look for in a trainer" - you may want to check it out!

Good luck!

[leeleeb1]

Thanks for the advice ,,, my luck with trainers sucks,, She is really good at training the rider but I think Joe Joe scares her a little bit.
I will check out the trainer threads and meanwhile I will keep looking for someone who can handle Joe. :)

[jumpinghorses]

I honestly think you need some solid groundwork on both horses before you try to ride anymore. There is a lot of holes just from what you have written. Find yourself a good trainer that works with problem horses, not all do.

About the crop, don't carry a short one. Carry a longer whip so that if you need to make contact you are not within striking distance. Let yourself get angry too so that you send her away from you with a lot of energy in yourself. If you feel afraid channel it into making her get away NOW. In order to keep yourself safe you can't be very nice until she starts to show some respect.

Good luck.

[sugarfoot]

I do back away,, because I don't think she will,, I will start caring the crop Do I just point it at her?? I don't like to use it on them,, but if I have to.

the problem is that you back away. you are telling your filly that she is correct in what she is doing. I would recommend asking a professional help you in person if that's possible. If this isn't possible and you have to work alone.....then I suggest using a long whip.
when you enter the paddock, if she approaches, wave the whip using rhythm and without contact....but use it in a way that is not aggressive. You must be matter -of-fact with the horse. Without emotions. The moment she moves away....the second....she does...lower the whip. If she comes at you anyway, then allow her to run into the whip.

This isn't an overnight fix. It may take a few days, weeks, months,...etc....depending on how long you've allowed her to be dominant.

If you want to approach her, if she acts dominant (ears pinned, turns her butt to you, etc) shoo her away with the whip, then ask her to face you and when she does, retreat....repeat until you can approach her and she's got a good attitude about it...

there's SO many steps to this, I really think you need to think about investing in written material or the DVDs that are available on the JL website. The Ground Control Manual is one of the best manuals out there for training a horse. It explains what you need to know, the how, what, why of training.
------------

As for Joey....honestly, it sounds like he's being pushed and rushed through training. He hasn't been given a chance to accept things, leaving too many holes in the training.

This is why he seems "fine" one day and not the next. the training isn't there. For your trainer to say, he doesn't listen to leg cues....ah...that means, he doesn't KNOW the leg cues, he was not taught properly. Along with other cues.

I suggest going back to the beginning and allowing Joey to tell you when to move on to the next lesson, thus filling the holes in the training.

Horses move at their own pace. When people try to make them move at people's pace, that's when the trouble starts...which is what you have there.

Not to mention, if the trainer is afraid of him, that does nothing to raise Joey's confidence in her and in himself. Joey needs a confident leader to lead him, to teach him and to be PATIENT enough to let him go at his own pace. Not to be in a hurry to ride him.

More ground work is in order. that's where I'd start. More desensitizing....also making sure that the saddle fits properly, not pinching the withers. I would also recommend that you are using a full cheek or a d ring snaffle bit, as these are mild bits that send clear signals to the horse...and bridlework is very important, to teach him the rein cues as well as respect and trust on the ground then transfer that to under saddle. And reteach the leg cues.

:)

[applewood]

I don't have much to add to what has already been said, but... I want to say I agree 110% with the advice you are being given. Sounds like you have a horse with respect issues (your mare) and you need to be safe. I agree with the advice to get a professional trainer ASAP!

Try asking around at the local feed stores, vet office, etc. Who do they hear good things about? And then get references from the trainers present and past clients, and call them! Ask them why they went to that trainer and did that person accomplish what they saw him/her for.

I had my mare kick at me once out of agression and I didn't have a crop with me at the time. I yelled and waved my hands around, scaring the heck out of her so that she thought I was a crazy woman. I only did it for about 3 - 5 seconds but it got the message across at that moment. After that I carried a crop with me (a long dressage whip actually) and used it to keep myself in a safe space until my mare realized I was alpha in her world.

Stay safe and get professional help asap!

[Southerngurl]

I've sent you a PM. :o

[Southerngurl]

Oops, guess it was an email. :rolleyes:

[PaCe2WN]

Welcome to the board!!! No advice to add, but I agree that groundwork is the most important thing for building confidence with horse and rider, along with the fact that it's the best thing you can do for a horse. Goo dluck!!!

[leeleeb1]

Thanks everyone for the advice,, I haven't been in this forum very long but everyone has been really helpful,,
I am feeling like maybe there is hope for the 3 of us

Thanks again :)

[sugarfoot]

Glad to hear you feel that way;)
there's always hope as long as you are willing to back up and take it one step at a time.....:)

[leeleeb1]

Well I just brought the horses in for the night,, they were both angels,, I opend the door grabbed Joe by the halter and he walked in all calm and gentle, Dakota stood at the door sniffing I took her by the halter and she was back to her perfect little angel self ,, It's raining here so I walked into her stall and wiped her down,, she just stood there,,, enjoying it ,, I brushed them both down in their stalls and they stood for it quietly ,, I do have good horses when they want to be

Thanks everyone again,, :)

[justbcos]

HA HA - they must have known you came and asked for advice, so they figured they'd better behave or you'd really give them some training :)

I'm sure they're really wonderful horses, good luck with them!

[leeleeb1]

lol,,, They must have known


:D

[dueces_r_wild2002]

Uh Oh, did everyone forget to tell leeleeb1 about the 24 hour picture rule?

We Demand pics!!!!..perferably within 24 hours of joining us. And if you need help posting them we are always more than happy to help :D

Both angels tonight..go figure :p but you have gotten some great advise here..I sure hope you like it an keep us updated (with pics tehee) on how things go!

Sue :)

[kayla]

I do back away,, because I don't think she will,, I will start caring the crop :) Do I just point it at her?? I don't like to use it on them,, but if I have to . :(



If you back away, you are showing the horse that you are submissive to her and that's just going to make your problems worse.

You sound like you're in over your head but if you dont' want to sell your horses, you need to get some professional help before someone gets hurt.

Your horses need to learn to listen and to respond to you. Though Sugarfoot is a certified trainer and giving you good advice with carrying a crop, my guess would be that your body language is still not going to put across what needs to happen. The crop isn't a weapon but it's more than pointing it at the horse. You need to indicate that you are the one that will NOT back down and the horse needs to move around you and move when you tell it to move.

But given what you're describing, I'm more concerned that you stay safe than I am with you teaching your horse to respect you right now.

What part of the country are you in? Have you looked on the main JL web site to see if there is a certified trainer near you?

[Tripledeuce]

Horses aren't "good" or "bad"...they're just being horses.......

If they do something "we" don't like,we think they are being "bad"..ther're just being horses.........

Along the same lines,,,if they do something we like ther're "good",,,not really,ther're just being horses..........

Its up to us,the owners,,to find out what we need to do to help them reach our expectitations..............

I have two saying's I repet to myself,,,

Slow is fast,,,,,,

horses are easy to train,, people are hard.......LOL!!!!

Respectfully

Terry

[leeleeb1]

Okay,, I have attached a picture of Joe I have no good pictures of Dakota, she always has her head in the hay,, (she is my little piggy) I will try and get a good one of her and post it maybe tomorrow,, Do you want a picture of our little Lu Lu (doggie) too :D

I do enjoy posting on this forum and will keep every one posted ,,I refuse to fail on this and refuse to give up on either one of them,, And don't worry I won't let her hurt me ,,

I shocked the heck out of Dakota yesterday morning , she was shaking her head and kinda jumping in her stall,, she wanted to get out or something ,, I grabbed my crop and when she calmed down for a second I grabbed her halter she tried to shake her head at me but I jerked the halter toward me and said quit,, she tried again she got a smack on the shoulder (not very hard the noise it made was worse than the actual slap) she just put her head up and she got these big eyes and stopped what she was doing ,, I got her attention and was able to lead her out side, quietly , I really didn't want to smack her,, the look on her face was almost like ""mommy what did you do"" it was priceless She really is a good girl most of the time..
The thing is when she is rearing and bucking she isn't pinning her ears